Could this be a new chance for the left?

[Leo Wilde]

Here's an interesting article about the Labour Party and the CNWP Crisis of Working Class Political Representation.

I think the Militant tradition is the way to go .

 

[articul8]

the article you cite is from ex-militants who split and stayed in the labour party. It is a tired sectarian justification for staying in the labour party under the delusion that you are at the heart of the labour movement, when really they are an uttery isolated rump.

 

[articul8]

Labour was created in a period of retreat for the working class and reflected the interests of a conservative trade union bureaucracy.

that's not strictly true. The TU bureaucracy were still advocating trying to influence the liberals from within (plus ca change...!).

 

[rebel warrior]

I think, however, that people who feel New Labour is a betrayal of everything Labour was meant to stand for, should very seriously consider joining the campaign to launch a new workers party - like in Germany and Brazil
see http://www.cnwp.org.uk

'hang on - which 'new workers party' in Brazil? Lula's neo liberal 'Workers Party'? Or the left split away from it - PSOL?

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Time for a new movement in the UK.

 

[rebel warrior]

Time for a new movement in the UK.

Exactly, which is why it is odd you recommend old labour warmed up - we have 100 years of Labourism in Britain and we have ended up with Blair. Isn't it time for something radically new?

 

[soulman]

Exactly, which is why it is odd you recommend old labour warmed up - we have 100 years of Labourism in Britain and we have ended up with Blair. Isn't it time for something radically new?

If by 'radically new' you mean an amalgamation of the tired old marxist/leninist grouplets into a new party, accompanied by in-fighting between them to assume leadership positions, I suggest there's nothing either radical or new about that.

 

[JHE]

If by 'radically new' you mean an amalgamation of the tired old marxist/leninist grouplets into a new party, accompanied by in-fighting between them to assume leadership positions, I suggest there's nothing either radical or new about that.

No, what Reb means is a novel lash-up between Trots and Islamists, campaigning for more religious schools and the imprisonment of those who 'insult' Islam.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

No. I don't think 'old' Labour needs warming up. It's perfectly warm, like a lot of our old people. Well, not the ones on the breadline who will be hammered by 22% gas price rises. Old doesn't mean no good. The Sun might hate Labour. So what? I don't kow-tow to Mr.Murdoch. International freedom of movement for my capital! No freedom of movement for brownskins! No thanks, rootless cosmopolitan media mogul man.

What's new is the Greens.

So.

GREEN. LABOUR.

In colour theory, green and red are complementary. Look at what hippies and socialists say. It tends to be opposite - but in the same kind of way that male and female are opposite. And we all know that that can be a very fertile mix - or a very destructive one.

It's starting to become fertile.

Greens hate the idea of leaders; Reds spend 98% of their time battling over who their leader is going to be.

Greens get too chilled out for their own good; Reds get too irate for their own good.

Greens are, in my experience, amazing at local issues and stunning councillors (so far); Reds are, in my experience, amazing at global politics and putting forward such big-picture things as multilateral nuclear disarmament.

Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Together, if the marriage works, you have the potential for a really potent left-wing that isn't going to have the shit kicked out of it in the playground and sand chucked in its face at the beach anymore.

It was the internet wot dunnit.

 

[soulman]

No, what Reb means is novel lash-up between Trots and Islamists, campaigning for more religious schools and the imprisonment of those who 'insult' Islam.

I can't see the RUC lasting too much longer and you can bet your bottom dollar that the swp will swoop in to any new 'workers party'. How could they resist it, it'll only take another about-turn, nothing new.

 

[articul8]

'hang on - which 'new workers party' in Brazil? Lula's neo liberal 'Workers Party'? Or the left split away from it - PSOL?

"New" is the giveaway here. P-SOl is a party founded on the basis of the neo-liberal betrayal of the old "Workers Party" leadership. The same would be true of any new formation here.

 

[tbaldwin]

Exactly, which is why it is odd you recommend old labour warmed up - we have 100 years of Labourism in Britain and we have ended up with Blair. Isn't it time for something radically new?

I'd say so,but what? An alliance of undemocratic far left groups will never appeal to many people beyond the liberal/left ghetto.
What might would be a Democratic Socialist party who reflect the opinions and aspirations of the majority of the population.
But most people on u75 would be firmly opposed to ordinary people in control.
Lets face it there "Elitist style Socialism" is a permenant dead end.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Articul8, were you ever bullied at school?

And I mean PHYSICALLY as well as mentally and emotionally. There was a female Labour MP who defected to the Lib Dems - I forget her name - at GE 2005 election time I think, who talked about physical violence in the HoC.

I think that was Emma Nicholson (now Baroness Nicholson IIRC) in 1995, she was a Conservative MP who defected to the Lib-Dems after being bullied, having the piss taken out of her deafness, and being physically assaulted by a particular tory MP and whip when she didn't follow the party line on a vote.

 

[sillymidoff]

.

 

[treelover]

ah, a typical middle class agenda then!, surely not, what about housing, poverty, welfare, the NHS, domestic violence, crime, or have they gone away with the end of history. Maybe this is why the BNP is growing....

As for where we go then, it's difficult to predict, but I reckon the crucial factors will be things like global warming/energy policy, rising anti-corporatism (but not particularly from a socialist perspective) and the war against terror.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

I do remember the Nicholson case, but the one I was thinking of was definitely a female Labour MP who defected to the Liberal Democrats around the same time as Sedgemore and the Battle of Sedgefield.

GREEN + RED = NEW LEFT.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

It rings a bell but I can't track down any links about it. I did however find this one about Sedgemore. I like the final paragraph on the first page - in retrospect I imagine the reference to a "glowing Mr Kennefy" was a gag...

 

[tbaldwin]

I do remember the Nicholson case, but the one I was thinking of was definitely a female Labour MP who defected to the Liberal Democrats around the same time as Sedgemore and the Battle of Sedgefield.

GREEN + RED = NEW LEFT.

Whats the point though Matthew,if a new left does not appeal beyond a few activists.
The liberal left apart from Blair and Livingstone seem to just appeal to a very narrow section of people.
If it's Socialism you want or you genuinelly want to have environment policies,you need to reject left elitism.



Real socialism can not exist without the support of the majority of the people.
The Left has rejected the views of ordinary people and until that changes the Left is dead.

Look at the Liberal Lefts main interests.. Tuition fees,ID cards and Iraq.
Hopeless Liberalism not Socialism.

They want more money for a educated elite as opposed to any idea of a genuine comprehensive education system.

They want a regulated economy but reject the nasty side effects.

And they think War is Bad..

Hopeless,Liberals.

On Crime and Migration they are firmly opposed to the views of ordinary people and support shit free market policies and elitism thru the Criminal Injustice System.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

You're raving, man.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

I want Green Socialism. I want it now.

I don't care that it's me an 9 other activists with holes in their shoes.

Life isn't static, it flows. What is heresy today may be orthodoxy tomorrow.

Instead of "what is the point?" I would rather ask "what are we to become?" and then "what is to be done?"

Left Liberals say something of vague interest but Liberalism is fundamentally right-wing. You can make small compromises her and there with it - and that's it. I'm not going to be pinning my hopes on the Liberals.

We need a regeneration of the Left. And the only way that will happen is if we stop accepting the status quo as defined to us by the rightist media and righist establishment as eternal. It isn't.

Imagine another world. Then make it. Won't be easy. Won't be popular.

So what? Who wants to be popular? President Blair made his whole career a bid to be popular, and look what happens when you do that. The whole country ends up despising you because they can't trust a single word you say.

Say what you believe, do what you believe. That's it. There's nothing else we can do, is there?

 

[tbaldwin]

I want Green Socialism. I want it now.

I don't care that it's me an 9 other activists with holes in their shoes.

Life isn't static, it flows. What is heresy today may be orthodoxy tomorrow.

Instead of "what is the point?" I would rather ask "what are we to become?" and then "what is to be done?"

Left Liberals say something of vague interest but Liberalism is fundamentally right-wing. You can make small compromises her and there with it - and that's it. I'm not going to be pinning my hopes on the Liberals.

We need a regeneration of the Left. And the only way that will happen is if we stop accepting the status quo as defined to us by the rightist media and righist establishment as eternal. It isn't.

Imagine another world. Then make it. Won't be easy. Won't be popular.

So what? Who wants to be popular? President Blair made his whole career a bid to be popular, and look what happens when you do that. The whole country ends up despising you because they can't trust a single word you say.

Say what you believe, do what you believe. That's it. There's nothing else we can do, is there?

You and 9 of your mates might have a nice time but if your really a Socialist, you want a better world for everyone.
And that can only happen with genuine Socialism not Elitism or a few disgruntled people dropping out of society.
Most people on u75 might despise Blair but he has won 3 elections and massivelly increased public spending. They have just moaned.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Hurrah! He has won 3 elections!

Why do we see politics as sport instead of public service? Why are we obsessed with the short-termism of winning? The public services are being privatised. Those that cling to the notion that President Blair is in any sense left-wing need to look at the current raft of so-called 'reforms' and 'progressions' (i.e. repressions). Just because you write the word 'Labour' on something, it doesn't make it Labour. If Blair changed the wording tomorrow to 'New Conservatism', would it shock and awe you?

 

[tbaldwin]

Matthew. The Minimum income guarantee,The Minimum Wage,The Educational Maintenance allowance,Massive increase in spending on Schools and Hospitals to my mind are all good things.
On the negative side PFI,PPP and the failure to renationalise public transport and liberal migration policies. On crime NL have not been tough enough on crime or the causes of crime.

New Labour have a mixed record. But the far left have a much worse record.
Years and years of innfighting and lies and contempt for the views of ordinary people.

 

[MatthewCuffe]

Cut the Blairspeak. It's vile. Tough on crime and the causes of crime?

President Blair is a war criminal. He told President Bush he would support him regardless of what the British people needed, thereby placing himself above the law. Only the Queen is above British law and that is nothing more than a convention now. "L'etat c'est moi" is not how we do things here.

I don't want the far left to govern - although I want their views to be listened to, respected very highly, and incorporated. I DO want the left to govern.

Not a criminal, a liar, and a fraud. And, above all else, fan of Cliff Richard. That takes the biscuit. How much musical talent is there in the UK which doesn't get rewarded? Why must we endure a so-called leader who hangs out in the sun at the Barbados court of the UK's cut-price Elvis novelty act?

Clement Attlee, yes. Tony Blair, no.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

That's not the worst slogan I ever heard.

 

[tbaldwin]

Cut the Blairspeak. It's vile. Tough on crime and the causes of crime?

Most people agree with the slogan,apart from a few stuck up tossers.
Until people who call themselves Socialists understand how crime effects working class people so much more and that anti social criminals need to be stopped,your all going to be a waste of time in fight for social justice.

I think Blair is preety shite but your politics seem to be to the right of his.

 

[jiggajagga]

Cut the Blairspeak. It's vile. Tough on crime and the causes of crime?

President Blair is a war criminal. He told President Bush he would support him regardless of what the British people needed, thereby placing himself above the law. Only the Queen is above British law and that is nothing more than a convention now. "L'etat c'est moi" is not how we do things here.
Clement Attlee, yes. Tony Blair, no.

The thing is Matt I mentioned the 60s and the left earlier in the post. This was the time when if 'the people' saw an injustice they acted upon it.
If war criminal Blair had done what has done in Iraq in the 60s I think that Downing Street would have been inundated by protesters and fuck the law. If something is wrong it is wrong!!! Harold Wilson knew not to join the USA in Vietnam for that same reason.

QUOTE:-"Britain should therefore satisfy its interests by giving moral ‘support to our major ally’. Wilson did favour this pro-American line, with the result that in general terms his government backed US policy in Vietnam. But unlike the mandarins of the Foreign Office, he also needed to address Labour Party and public opinion. In March 1965 Bruce explained to Washington that the British leader was ‘hotly accused by many British, including a formidable number of moderate Labour Parliamentarians, of being a mere satellite of the US, and of subscribing blindly and completely to policies about which he has not been consulted in advance’."

Tony Blair saw public opinion and said " Fuck public opinion". He only did that because he knew the 'people' were to soft to actually 'do' anything about it!!


I get the impression that if a march of the youth of today were marching toward Downing Street and they passed a shop selling the latest 'gadget' or mobile phone their 3 second concentration span would collapse and they would go shopping instead!!

And that Matt is the problem today. Blair works on the assumption that if the masses are busy consuming then they haven't the capacity or ability to think of two things at once. The sad thing is I think he may be right!!!!
The biggest problem the left has always had is education.
We all learned of kings and queens and great battles at school but how much time was spent on workers struggles of the past? A few scatterings here, a few 'tolpuddle' like mutterings there.
I mean, if you asked any 18 yr old today why all the mines shut down in the 80s I wonder how many would give you the 'real' answer and not the Thatcherite/Blairite line?

 

[poster342002]

Matthew. The Minimum income guarantee,The Minimum Wage,The Educational Maintenance allowance,Massive increase in spending on Schools and Hospitals to my mind are all good things.
On the negative side PFI,PPP and the failure to

Here we go again; "FOUR LEGS GOOD! TWO LEGS BAD! FOUR LEGS GOOD! TWO LEGS BAD!" and for good measure "You don't want Mr Jones to come back do you?"

 

[TremulousTetra]

well if the disorganised left was stopping the war in Iraq, halting identity cards, achieving better terms and conditions at work, combating racism islamaphobia and the fascist, then perhaps I would have celebrated the demise of the organised left. I do not want to see a rehash of the mistakes that was the Labour Party, however I have yet to see the gains from the smaller purer disorganised left we have at the moment. I honestly hope my pessimism is proved wrong.

fraternal greetings. ResistanceMP3

 

[tbaldwin]

well if the disorganised left was stopping the war in Iraq, halting identity cards, achieving better terms and conditions at work, combating racism islamaphobia and the fascist, then perhaps I would have celebrated the demise of the organised left. I do not want to see a rehash of the mistakes that was the Labour Party, however I have yet to see the gains from the smaller purer disorganised left we have at the moment. I honestly hope my pessimism is proved wrong.

fraternal greetings. ResistanceMP3

But the organised left are not exactly succesful either are they. For all the anti blair hysteria look at the size of the organised left in 1997 and look at it now. It either shows that lots of dissillusioned lefties have no faith in far left groups or perhaps they dont quite hate NL as much as they pretend.