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I've been reading about this latest Chinese report which seems the most comprehensive yet. China releases largest study on Covid-19 outbreak

The thing that really stood out is the mortality rate is so much higher in the epicenter of the outbreak than elsewhere. Does anyone have any thoughts on why that might be?

That's a fair different between 2.9% & 0.4%. There's been plenty of reports that mild cases were being turned away from hospitals in Wuhan, as they were so overwhelmed with the numbers, which would suggest they were not being tested, so those cases wouldn't be included in the overall figures, which I guess could explain the different.
 
The thing that really stood out is the mortality rate is so much higher in the epicenter of the outbreak than elsewhere. Does anyone have any thoughts on why that might be?
Tracking has turned up lots of mild and asymptomatic cases whereas in Wuhan hospitals are overwhelmed to the point that only the most serious cases get medical attention. Less severe cases get no attention at all (though there are plenty of believable reports of people being sent home to die without being reported as well).

Also because they had it first the worst cases will have reached their conclusion, mortality rate could easily rise over time outside China.

Or it's possible that there is some local environmental factor that makes the virus more deadly. We know that normal flu is very seasonal so this isn't too much of a stretch. It's near the end of normal UK flu season now. If it depends on similar seasonal factors maybe it was a little to late too catch influenzas usual surge across continents.

Or something else.
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Yes to the stuff already mentioned, although probably not so much environmental factors, unless we are including failure to notice the outbreak was happening, overloaded hospitals, etc as part of environmental factors.

Whatever the reasons, I dont usually take data from the first localised outbreak all that seriously. Its just too easy for early mortality rates to be out by at least one order of magnitude.

Plus the rate is only one part of the story. Which age groups are most susceptible can have quite the impact on how the outbreak affects society. eg as well as the low mortality rate, H1N1 2009 pandemic swine flu occured most obviously and dramatically in younger people. With hindsight they believe that older people probably had some partial immunity to the H1N1 2009 due to exposure to other particular strains of H1N1 that circulated much earlier in their lives. These older strains were not the same as the 2009 version, but had enough similarities to confer some effect. So far Covid-19 is showing a more traditional 'worse outcomes in older people' pattern, although there will still be some deaths of younger people, that grab attention for obvious reasons.
 
I should have pointed out that when I was talking about different age groups, I was speaking more generally about number of cases, rather than number of deaths. But one does tend to have an impact on the other.

Anyway, I'm sticking to my 'its too early to put much weight on any of these numbers' stance for now. Mostly because I have the luxury of being able to do so, others who have to do pandemic planning have no choice but to use the various mortality numbers we already have, even if they may be way off.
 
I don't think there have been any Americans so far. They'd (the US) probably want to get their hands on a couple.

Just to tidy up the record, there were already 15 confirmed cases on US soil, before 14 more people who came from the cruise ship tested positive before being flown home.
 
Anyway there are other examples but I deliberately picked some of the worst ones (ones with longest date ranges between seeking treatment and getting diagnosed, most number of visits to different healthcare facilities during that time, etc). Many others were tested and found to be infected much more quickly than the ones I've listed. Point is, these particular cases were eventually spotted, but the criteria for who you suspect could have Covid-19 limits the ability to detect every case. ie No travel to certain regions or known contacts at the time, means they arent even looking for coronavirus in that patient. Presumably it was only a combination of persistence by the ill person, or a cluster/other cases being detected in the meantime that the new ill person can be linked to, that lead to eventual identification of these cases. For those in whom illness remains mild, there is unlikely to be the same level of persistence in seeking medical help, although some of them could still be picked up via contact tracing eventually. And its the same story in most other countries (though this will change eventually, as countries broaden the criteria in response to general community spread).

Todays press conference remarks by WHO director-general include useful information that Singapore has already switched to looking for cases far more broadly. I dont know when this switch happened, though it is not surprising as they are one of the countries that has spoken of a possible new phase, and we have seen this change elsewhere recently too.

Yesterday I spoke to Singapore’s Minister of Health and we are very impressed with the efforts they are making to find every case, follow up with contacts, and stop transmission.

Singapore is leaving no stone unturned, testing every case of influenza-like illness and pneumonia. So far they have not found evidence of community transmission.

From WHO Director-General's remarks at the media briefing on COVID-19 outbreak on 18 February 2020

The Singapore cases which I previously listed as examples of opportunities missed to spot these cases much earlier, should be much less likely to take so long to spot in future, because of this change.

As for the remark that 'they have not found evidence of community transmission', I would prefer a phrase such as 'sustained community transmission' or 'wider community transmission'. Because there have been a number of clusters in Singapore that featured human to human transmission, as well as a handful of cases that they havent been able to link to known clusters/locations/infected contacts.

It may seem like a minor point but language and terminology around this point matters because its the amount and nature of any community spread that will dictate whether this is a pandemic or not.

A WHO quote from yesterday does use an additional word to qualify that sort of remark:

Dr. Mike Ryan, head of WHO’s emergencies program, said: “The real issue is whether we are seeing efficient community transmission outside of China and at the present time we are not observing that.”

From 'Every scenario on the table' in China virus outbreak: WHO's Tedros

And rather conveniently I can illustrate these stages using the 2009 H1N1 pandemic.

Here is a comment from early May 2009:

Dr Ryan, meanwhile, said that there was "no evidence of sustained community spread outside of North America".

He did go on to suggest a pandemic was imminent back then, in May 2009, but at the time he was giving those quotes the threshold had not been crossed. The degree of community transmission in countries in a different region to the one where the outbreak began was a key indicator they used, and it took until June 11th 2009 to declare the pandemic. It was obvious to most people that it was a pandemic some time before then, but then we can always argue about exactly where the threshold should be.

For example, I dont know how many, or which, countries exactly would need to show sustained community transmission of this coronavirus in order for a pandemic to be declared. If it happens in Hong Kong, there is the 'thats still China' angle. If it happens in Singapore or Japan, there is the argument that is still the same region, and they might try to stretch things out until the same thing happens much further away. Or maybe the timing will render this question sort of irrelevant, if a bunch of places start to detect the same spread emerging at about the same time. Or maybe this focus of mine will turn out to be pointless because a pandemic wont happen after all (I havent quite given up on this possibility yet!).

It is a pretty safe bet that if my own personal threshold for that stuff is crossed, I will keep calling this a pandemic even if its not officially one yet. It's unlikely I will be far out on a limb if this happens though, my threshold shouldnt be wacky or paranoid, its just the WHO ones tend to be a tad too conservative/lag behind a touch.

So far there is no large disconnect between my own opinion of the situation and phase, and what the WHO says. Just a difference in mood music and emphasis, some of which stems from me being a lone human with no diplomatic or sugar-coating responsibilities.
 
I've been reading about this latest Chinese report which seems the most comprehensive yet. China releases largest study on Covid-19 outbreak

The thing that really stood out is the mortality rate is so much higher in the epicenter of the outbreak than elsewhere. Does anyone have any thoughts on why that might be?

Outside of China ICUs have not been saturated yet. If you need intensive care and all beds are full what can be done? I have great sympathy for the medical staff having to make these decisions. This trauma will leave its mark.
 
One more for the asymptomatic cases (or alternatively testing positive before later showing symptoms) pile:

That brings the total number of cases from the ship to 542, and the total number across all of Japan to 615.

Health ministry officials say among the people who were recently confirmed to be infected. 65 are not exhibiting any symptoms.

 
There's no antidote to this, why do people think going to the hospital will help?

Its not a poison, so its not as simple as antidote or not.

A range of treatments and life-supporting measures are available in general for people experiencing various degrees of respiratory distress. Many severe cases will not be fatal, in great part as a result of this sort of care.

Going to the hospital (ater checking with authorities) is also happening for the purposes of actually testing people, rather than treatment. This will change if/when the outbreak becomes much larger, and then the priority will be providing care to severe cases. Milder cases will be told to stay at home, and will be discouraged from clogging up the healthcare system at all, unless their condition deteriorates in which case they join the severe cases.

Experimental treatments are being tied in China. And there have been stories recently about a call for people who were infected but recovered, to donate blood so they can use their blood plasma to treat severe cases.
 
In the UK the advice is only to self-isolate though. No matter the symptoms.


No.

Part of the advice is to get people to be sensible about self-isolation, and to call 111, dont randomly turn up at a hospital, clinic etc.

The actual severity of your illness is an entirely different matter that is not well covered by that particular page of advice at all.

And the current advice is still for a phase where they are aiming the advice at people with certain travel history or links to other cases. If the phase of outbreak in the UK is determined to have changed, the advice will be adjusted to suit the new circumstances.
 
Yes, I just made reference to that.

It doesnt mean people who get real sick from it dont end up in hospital. At the moment in the UK even people that are not really very sick at all will still end up in hospital if they test positive for it. Calling 111 is the beginning.
 
How many deaths before we get consensus on not eating meat?

Don’t flame, answer.

There will be no consensus on that from this outbreak, no matter if it becomes a pandemic that kills many people.

The issue will be zoomed in on, and broader questions about eating animals at all will not get much of a look in. Markets with live animals, and especially markets with live animals that were caught in the wild, will get most of the attention.
 
Exactly that.

The 'vague' bit was about you saying 'Don't flame, answer'.
I see elbows went some way to respond but it's that that I was questioning - because I really don't understand what you're saying and I would like to - but 'exactly that' doesn't answer it. :confused:
If you can't be arsed to explain, that's fine with me, but if you can - after you've dropped something that sounds quite important - I'd like to hear it!
 
Several times now, I've seen the advice over here in response to the outbreak to thoroughly cook meat and eggs. I mean, OK, fine, no dippy eggs for a while, but why? :confused: How is cooking meat and eggs related to the transmission of the virus? Is it? Are they just sneaking a bit of extra health advice in while they've got our attention? :hmm:
 
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