Coronavirus - worldwide breaking news, discussion, stats, updates and more

[elbows]

It certainly damages even further the confidence in that particular vaccine which was already very shaky due to some stupid statements by certain EU leaders.

Doing nothing is also bad for public confidence - one of the reasons authorities like to be seen as taking a cautious, precautionary approach is to maintain public confidence, not be accused of covering things up, not get in shit later if there is an issue.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Read earlier that 17m doses of the AZ vaccine have been given, 40 people have had blood clots/DVT after having had the shot. There's no direct link between the two. Is 40 out of 17,000,000 anything to even remotely worry about?

 

[two sheds]

Also this bit of BBC analysis:

It's to allow time for experts to explore why a small number of people who were recently given the shot also developed blood clots.

From Covid-19: Netherlands suspends use of AstraZeneca vaccine

I agree, its the right thing to do.

Good point. I wonder whether had diet, condition that meant they were susceptible to getting blood clots. And whether this might help identifying people who are susceptible to getting blood clots more widely. I'm hoping that the study of people with lung conditions due to long covid will help with asthma treatments for example.

/we can always hope

 

[Brainaddict]

Read earlier that 17m doses of the AZ vaccine have been given, 40 people have had blood clots/DVT after having had the shot. There's no direct link between the two. Is 40 out of 17,000,000 anything to even remotely worry about?

No. People have totally lost it over this.

I suspect there's no link anyway, but even if there were, the public health benefit of continuing to use the vaccine - while supply of others is limited - is so overwhelming that I can only assume that covid has sent a bunch of European leaders and scientists mad. Thousands are dying every day, and mostly blood clots aren't even fatal, and those numbers are tiny.

By all means investigate, but pausing is literally going to kill people.

 

[Brainaddict]

Also this bit of BBC analysis:



From Covid-19: Netherlands suspends use of AstraZeneca vaccine

I agree, its the right thing to do.

Surprised to see you say this. While supplies of other vaccines are constrained there's going to be a measurable death toll to pausing use of AZ vaccine. I can't balance it out in my head so that pausing makes sense.

 

[LDC]

Surprised to see you say this. While supplies of other vaccines are constrained there's going to be a measurable death toll to pausing use of AZ vaccine. I can't balance it out in my head so that pausing makes sense.

Liability and public confidence in vaccination? If they don't pause it, and some link is found, then it'd be very messy legally, and in countries where vaccine confidence is already low that could give it a death blow.

 

[teuchter]

If they don't pause it, and some link is found, then it'd be very messy legally,

I don't really see why that would be the case. It would depend on how plausible a link is, and an assessment of the risks relative to delaying the rollout. Otherwise you would have to pause the vaccination process every single time something bad happened to anyone who had been given it.

 

[Brainaddict]

Liability and public confidence in vaccination? If they don't pause it, and some link is found, then it'd be very messy legally, and in countries where vaccine confidence is already low that could give it a death blow.

I think they're doing more damage to confidence by pausing. It's already 'the dodgy one' in a lot of Europe, this is going to confirm that reputation. I think what has damaged confidence is authorities making inappropriate public statements about a small possible side effect of a vaccine with very high benefits. As I say, even if the AZ vaccine is causing a few bloodclots, they need to carry on using it anyway until there's a supply of other vaccines. Sorry, sometimes medicines have side-effects - there's always a bit of a cost-benefit calculation.

Edit to add - obviously if there were massive negative effects to it I would agree with suspending it. But this is not massive, though I understand it is upsetting for the few people concerned.

 

[IC3D]

Blood clotting is a recognised covid 19 symptom it can cause a rash or pulmary embolism amongst other things. It is not a sign your immune system is doing very well.
It's a marker of severe illness not something you want in a vaccine.

 

[LDC]

I don't really see why that would be the case. It would depend on how plausible a link is, and an assessment of the risks relative to delaying the rollout. Otherwise you would have to pause the vaccination process every single time something bad happened to anyone who had been given it.

Yeah, I kind of agree, but it's the only thing I can think of that's motivating these pauses.

 

[LDC]

Blood clotting is a recognised covid 19 symptom it can cause a rash or pulmary embolism amongst other things. It is not a sign your immune system is doing very well.
It's a marker of severe illness not something you want in a vaccine.

No, it's not a recognized symptom of covid infection. VTEs happen to some patients that have covid, but it's very far from all patients. What do you mean it's a marker of severe illness? Generally, or covid related? And obviously it's not something you want a vaccine to cause, just as well that currently there's no evidence that this is the case.

 

[Supine]

It's a marker of severe illness not something you want in a vaccine.

the data isn't showing any relationship between the vaccine and blood clots so that's ok.

 

[LDC]

Already heard a story from family friend today, classic son of a friend knows someone who had a clot in the brain after having the vaccine and the doctor said the vaccine is the only thing that it could have caused it.

 

[Brainaddict]

I actually know someone who went into hospital for blood clots shortly after having the vaccine.

It was the Pfizer vaccine.

 

[Smangus]

Had my vaccine on Friday, no ill effect apart from a bit of a sore arm , now based on he EU reaction should I start necking aspirins?

 

[LDC]

VTEs are reasonably common, I used to work in a hospital department that saw loads every week in all ages.

 

[Teaboy]

Already heard a story from family friend today, classic son of a friend knows someone who had a clot in the brain after having the vaccine and the doctor said the vaccine is the only thing that it could have caused it.

The next few years we are going to be saturated with these sorts of tales. Cancer will be the one given how many people are diagnosed with cancer on any given day think how many will be diagnosed after having had a vaccine. It can only of been the vaccine!!!11!

Its going to be relentless

 

[Teaboy]

Had my vaccine on Friday, no ill effect apart from a bit of a sore arm , now based on he EU reaction should I start necking aspirins?

No good for me as I'm allergic to aspirin. Its amazing how many very common drugs have quite extreme side affects in some people yet no one gives a shit. Ibuprofen causes stomach bleeds yet some will still eat them like smarties. Wevs.

 

[Smangus]

Can't use Ibuprofen as it causes my asthma to kick off, paracetamol and liver damage all the way for me.

 

[elbows]

Surprised to see you say this.

Well, dont be surprised. I support precautionary principals but I am also aware that there are some impossibly hard balancing acts at work.

I will almost always err on the side of full disclosure, downplaying things beyond a certain point is a recipe for disaster, even though disclosure and caution has consequences too.

I also find the vaccine era of the pandemic much more difficult to navigate from a commentary point of view, it will be quite easy for me to get things wrong. And I'm frequently being driven mad by giddy attitudes towards vaccination, and peoples tendency to see things in binary terms. For example I am going quite nuts about the picture some people have in their heads about what levels of death, personal risk etc are still on the table even when most are vaccinated, and what behaviours are acceptable then. But if I state my case too loudly, I might quite rightly be accused of painting too gloomy a picture. Only time will tell, there are plenty of unknowns in my mind.

 

[IC3D]

No, it's not a recognized symptom of covid infection. VTEs happen to some patients that have covid, but it's very far from all patients. What do you mean it's a marker of severe illness? Generally, or covid related? And obviously it's not something you want a vaccine to cause, just as well that currently there's no evidence that this is the case.

Yes there are blood clotting abnormalities
In severely ill covid patients that are being increasingly recognised.

 

[gentlegreen]

I cane the sprouts and broccoli, (vitamin K) but not at the sorts of levels that would give me grief if I was on warfarin ...
I actually bought some aspirin a while back, but to dissolve the enamel off of wire when soldering ...

 

[cupid_stunt]

Yes there are blood clotting abnormalities
In severely ill covid patients that are being increasingly recognised.

Yep, there seems to be plenty of research coming out suggesting a major link between Covid & blood clotting.

Recent data from the Netherlands and France suggest that of the patients with coronavirus who are admitted to intensive care units (ICU), 30-70% develop blood clots in the deep veins of the legs, or in the lungs.

Around one in four coronavirus patients admitted to ICU will develop a pulmonary embolism.

These rates are much higher than we would usually see in patients requiring admission to ICU for reasons other than COVID-19.

One theory is that the increased rate of blood clots in COVID-19 is simply a reflection of being particularly unwell and immobile.

However, the current data suggest the risk of blood clots is significantly greater in patients with COVID-19 than what is usually see in patients admitted to hospital and ICUs.

Another potential explanation is that the virus is directly impacting on the cells lining our blood vessels. When the body fights an infection, the immune system becomes activated to try and kill the invader, and research shows an activated immune system can cause blood clots.

COVID-19 blood clots & stroke risk • HRI

There is mounting evidence COVID-19 causes abnormalities in blood clotting, which can cause heart attacks and stroke.

www.hriuk.org

Blood clots continue to wreak havoc for patients with severe COVID-19 infection, and a new study explains what may spark them in up to half of patients.

The culprit: an autoimmune antibody that’s circulating in the blood, attacking the cells and triggering clots in arteries, veins, and microscopic vessels. Blood clots can cause life-threatening events like strokes. And, in COVID-19, microscopic clots may restrict blood flow in the lungs, impairing oxygen exchange.

Outside of novel coronavirus infection, these clot-causing antibodies are typically seen in patients who have the autoimmune disease antiphospholipid syndrome. The connection between autoantibodies and COVID-19 was unexpected, says co-corresponding author Yogen Kanthi, M.D., an assistant professor at the Michigan Medicine Frankel Cardiovascular Center and a Lasker Investigator at the National Institutes of Health’s National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute.

New Cause of COVID-19 Blood Clots Identified

A new study reveals the COVID-19 virus triggers production of autoantibodies circulating through the blood, causing blood coagulation and clots in people hospitalized with the disease.

labblog.uofmhealth.org

 

[gentlegreen]

No, it's not a recognized symptom of covid infection. VTEs happen to some patients that have covid, but it's very far from all patients. What do you mean it's a marker of severe illness? Generally, or covid related? And obviously it's not something you want a vaccine to cause, just as well that currently there's no evidence that this is the case.

I'm still at the stage of trying to understand what the differences are between viruses - given that their "role" in nature seems mostly to bust up cells in the process of reproducing - I suppose it's down to all the particular cells that have ACE receptors ...

But in any case the AZ vaccine vector is presumably a low-impact respiratory virus even if it hadn't had its guts ripped out - and it's injected well away from the respiratory tract - though I wonder if there's a difference if it accidentally gets injected into a minor blood vessel rather than muscle ...

 

[LDC]

Yes there are blood clotting abnormalities
In severely ill covid patients that are being increasingly recognised.

Yes, but you're jumbling up all your terminology and being very unclear in what you're saying. Some very ill covid patients get VTEs, but that doesn't make it a symptom.

 

[gentlegreen]

Early on in the epidemic I watched a short piece about what it's actually like being intubated and in an induced coma (?) for months - eek...

 

[elbows]

Yep, there seems to be plenty of research coming out suggesting a major link between Covid & blood clotting.

And its been on my radar since the first wave because consequences such as strokes seem likely to be one of the reasons for a large gap between death certificate Covid-19 deaths and total excess deaths in that period. eg cases with a lack of severe respiratory symptoms not identified as likely cases at all, and then dropping dead.

 

[LDC]

Early on in the epidemic I watched a short piece about what it's actually like being intubated and in an induced coma (?) for months - eek...

I've intubated people and having done it and understanding how it works does help in making it less of a scary thing to go through (have been intubated as well). Although being done for a planned op must be so different to struggling for breath and being told you're going to be put on a ventilator as you're getting worse and you might not wake up. Must be fucking scary if you have any level of awareness tbh.

 

[gentlegreen]

I've intubated people and having done it and understanding how it works does help in making it less of a scary thing to go through (have been intubated as well). Although being done for a planned op must be so different to struggling for breath and being told you're going to be put on a ventilator as you're getting worse and you might not wake up. Must be fucking scary if you have any level of awareness tbh.

I follow Michael Rosen on Facebook - I suspect he's holding a lot back ...

 

[Sue]

I follow Michael Rosen on Facebook - I suspect he's holding a lot back ...

Don't know if you heard this but definitely worth a listen. (There's a particularly unexpected and heartbreaking bit from his consultant.)

BBC Radio 4 - The Reunion, The Covid-19 ward

Michael Rosen and the medical staff who cared for him during his battle with coronavirus.

www.bbc.co.uk