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[LDC]

What is it about meat processing factories, of which there are a lot on that list?

Already been talked about numerous times. Temperature good for the virus, a close working environment between workers, noisy so people shout, likely to be low waged workers often also sharing accommodation, usually male, etc.

 

[clicker]

Greece expected to make announcement today re further restrictions. Lots of rumours, but numbers going up and they were doing so well.

 

[teuchter]

Already been talked about numerous times. Temperature good for the virus, a close working environment between workers, noisy so people shout, likely to be low waged workers often also sharing accommodation, usually male, etc.

Actually reading up a bit since I asked the question - it seems the significant factor may be the ventilation to refridgerated areas, as air is recirculated in the ventilation system.

 

[Teaboy]

Greece expected to make announcement today re further restrictions. Lots of rumours, but numbers going up and they were doing so well.

They were very keen to welcome tourists this summer. Really very tricky for the authorities because Greece is so reliant on tourist money probably even more so than Spain.

 

[zahir]

Cases on the rise in Greece.

New daily record in Greece: 203 new coronavirus cases; deaths reach 212 - Keep Talking Greece

An all time high in daily cases, higher even than at the peak of the coronavirus, is recorded in Gre

www.keeptalkinggreece.com

 

[wemakeyousoundb]

Anectodal: lots of new restrictions introduced in Gumbet - turkey on Saturday
and a quick search brought an article from yesterday on the times website saying there is an "unofficial" surge in cases there.

 

[teuchter]

Of course there's a lag, but Greece (orange) and Turkey (blue) seem to be doing just fine as far as deaths are concerned.
A lot of these headlines aren't reporting much more than noisy data when you've got very small numbers involved, I think.

 

[elbows]

Of course there's a lag, but Greece (orange) and Turkey (blue) seem to be doing just fine as far as deaths are concerned.
A lot of these headlines aren't reporting much more than noisy data when you've got very small numbers involved, I think.

There are stories to be told that dont involve death.

I'd say the trend with number of cases in Greece is worthy of reporting. As I've said a fair bit recently, not too many countries that intend to tackle the pandemic pro-actively are going to sit around waiting to see whether deaths start to increase before taking action these days.

 

[teuchter]

There are stories to be told that dont involve death.

I'd say the trend with number of cases in Greece is worthy of reporting. As I've said a fair bit recently, not too many countries that intend to tackle the pandemic pro-actively are going to sit around waiting to see whether deaths start to increase before taking action these days.

View attachment 225995

Sure, but you can see similar trends in other countries too ... it may be to do with improved testing, or it might indicate an increase in prevalence, it seems difficult to know unless you see evidence filtering through to deaths or hospital admissions etc.

 

[zahir]

I’d take the figures from Greece at face value. It is what it looks like.

 

[Brainaddict]

Even the countries that managed the virus better than the UK are repeatedly having trouble. I more and more think that it's NZ that's got it right: total suppression, full enforced quarantine at the border. Both morally and in economic terms it looks like the winning strategy. I know it's difficult to do from the situation we're now in, but it's not impossible and I think it's going to be better than managing these waves - and the economic and human cost of that - until the mythical vaccine is found.

 

[elbows]

Sure, but you can see similar trends in other countries too ... it may be to do with improved testing, or it might indicate an increase in prevalence, it seems difficult to know unless you see evidence filtering through to deaths or hospital admissions etc.

But the people in those places analysing the data do know whether something about their own testing regime has changed recently. Its a factor that needs to be taken into account, but its unlikely to be the only thing driving recent increases.

I dont necessarily expect that many newsworthy increases in case detection to lead to newsworthy increases in hospitalisations and deaths even after factoring in the usual lag. Because certainly the point about improved testing is very relevant if attempting to compare number of cases now with number of cases in the older initial wave data. In many countries the numbers cannot be compared in a straightforward way because the vast bulk of cases were not tested in the first wave. So I dont have a reason to think, for example, that if the number of cases in green in that last chart for the Netherlands were to reach again the levels it reached months ago, the rate of death would also climb to the same level as before.

 

[clicker]

Greece ...


They are now insisting on negative covid tests, taken 72 hrs before entering Greece for 5 countries...Spain, Belgium, Czech rep and can't remember. I think that's air passengers, land borders stricter.
Bars closing at midnight from tonight, no standing, dancing or performers (unless seated.)
I think they're doing the right thing asking for negative testing before travel. I can see that being adopted elsewhere.
No outdoor festivals and it's peak 'festival for everything' season, for locals and tourists.
Today's restrictions to be reviewed in a week.

 

[elbows]

I havent read any ECDC documents for months, and I used to go on about those quite a lot. If this quote from the following article is anything to go by then its probably time I had a fresh look.

The Stockholm-based European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control called on member states that are seeing an increase in cases to reinstate control measures, warning of a “true resurgence” in several countries and a “risk of further escalation” across the continent.

From Coronavirus in Europe: France extends mask use as Greece says it is in second wave

 

[teuchter]

Even the countries that managed the virus better than the UK are repeatedly having trouble. I more and more think that it's NZ that's got it right: total suppression, full enforced quarantine at the border. Both morally and in economic terms it looks like the winning strategy. I know it's difficult to do from the situation we're now in, but it's not impossible and I think it's going to be better than managing these waves - and the economic and human cost of that - until the mythical vaccine is found.

Do you think it would realistically be possible in the UK?
No truck drivers crossing the channel, for example?

 

[LDC]

Do you think it would realistically be possible in the UK?
No truck drivers crossing the channel, for example?

I think it would be possible, but it's not realistic as it would require huge political will and have massive social implications that I'm not sure people would accept.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

 

[zahir]

New measures in Greece.

Greece announced additional measures to contain spread of coronavirus - Keep Talking Greece

Greece announced on Monday a series of additional measures and restrictions to contain the spread of

www.keeptalkinggreece.com

 

[editor]

I've a friend who's due back from France this weekend. Hopefully he'll make it before things change. (Saying that, he's WFH so it could be worse.)

Was talking to a friend who lives in Paris last night. He reckons the increase in numbers is because everyone's pretty much gone back to normal behaviour, especially in bars and restaurants which are packed.

It hasn't been looking to clever down St Tropez way:

Last week, two of the French Riviera resort’s hot spots — Indie Beach House on Ramatuelle’s Pampelonne Beach, and Pablo, a trendy bistro on Saint-Tropez’s Place des Lices, both owned by the same company — where shut down when four staff members reportedly tested positive for the coronavirus. Since then, authorities have reported that 20 of Pablo’s 30 employees and one of Indie Beach’s have been infected with the virus that causes the disease covid-19.

Another eatery, Noto, which describes itself as a “festive Italian restaurant” on the Place des Lices, was shuttered Monday for two weeks after six employees tested positive. And the regional health agency recorded 64 cases on the peninsula between July 25 and Aug. 1.

Meanwhile, on Thursday, the local prefecture closed two other hopping Pampelonne Beach clubs — Moorea and Verde — for not respecting social distancing rules. Indeed, on the eve of the closure announcement, Verde’s thumping music and the cheering of the crowd could be heard a mile away.

As the summer progressed, some restaurants and beach clubs loosened up on the rules. Live music during dinner service brought mask-free dancing, which management shrugged off. With nightclubs such as the VIP Room and Les Caves du Roy padlocked for the season, some beach clubs became daytime discothèques, with waitstaff wearing masks on their chins — or not at all. In late July, Nikki Beach came under fire after videos circulated on social media of hundreds of unmasked partyers cavorting to music by French DJ Kungs.

After the local authorities stepped up enforcement, some clubs hired “guetteurs,” or lookouts, who are posted at beach-road entrances and call the maître d’ when the gendarmes drive up for spot inspections. Down goes the music, up go the masks.

Then came the outbreak. And the closures. And the new mask regulations, which the Var-Matin charmingly dubbed the “Bal Masqué,” or masquerade ball. On Saturday, the paper reported two more fashionable restaurants in town — the Salama and the Gaïo — had closed shop, and Siri, the deputy mayor, said the sub-prefect “envisions other closures as a preventive measure if health measures are not more effectively put in place.”

Outline.com

outline.com

 

[Brainaddict]

I think it would be possible, but it's not realistic as it would require huge political will and have massive social implications that I'm not sure people would accept.

Well, I don't think it's realistic for this bunch, and they've repeatedly sabotaged any chance of anyone taking them seriously so have no political capital except among twats. With another government it would have been realistic and people could have been persuaded if the right approach had been taken from the beginning of saying let's not let people die, instead of normalising constant death from CV-19.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Don’t really know where to put this, but...

In March British Airways came out with a policy of book with confidence, if you book flights up to September you can change them without penalty and if you can’t take them for any reason you can have a credit, when they would normally incur a change penalty of £60 or £100 and be non-refundable. Other airlines have done the same.

Yesterday BA extended this. For travel until August 2021.

The Tokyo Olympics were postponed until next summer. The IOC recently came out and said that it will not postpone it further but will cancel if they can’t go ahead.

We are being prepared for this bastard thing to run and run. It will not be all over by Christmas

 

[William of Walworth]

We are being prepared for this bastard thing to run and run. It will not be all over by Christmas

Without any sign of any vaccine, that's 100% true. Nor do I think (at all) that 'all this' will be over by Xmas.

And also I keep telling myself, really strictly, not to get too optimistic about any vaccine prospect.

But in terms of 2021 more generally, your statement there is (to me) still more about likely, rather than absolutely inevitable

 

[maomao]

Don’t really know where to put this, but...

In March British Airways came out with a policy of book with confidence, if you book flights up to September you can change them without penalty and if you can’t take them for any reason you can have a credit, when they would normally incur a change penalty of £60 or £100 and be non-refundable. Other airlines have done the same.

Yesterday BA extended this. For travel until August 2021.

The Tokyo Olympics were postponed until next summer. The IOC recently came out and said that it will not postpone it further but will cancel if they can’t go ahead.

We are being prepared for this bastard thing to run and run. It will not be all over by Christmas

The big travel agent in central London my wife used to work for is down to a fraction of its previous size. Furloughed over 80% of the staff. The whole industry looks ruined.

 

[Chz]

My mrs works for a ski holiday company. Bookings are down, as you would expect, but there are a lot of optimistic people out there. I suppose they're all confident they'll get their money back, so why not chance it?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

My mrs works for a ski holiday company. Bookings are down, as you would expect, but there are a lot of optimistic people out there. I suppose they're all confident they'll get their money back, so why not chance it?

Cos the company might well go bust?

 

[mx wcfc]

Cos the company might well go bust?

wouldn't ABTA cover it? (this is daft. anyone booking a skiing holiday should take the risk themselves, rather than everyone bearing the risk through increased holiday costs - didn't most of Europe's infection come via ski resorts?)

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

wouldn't ABTA cover it? (this is daft. anyone booking a skiing holiday should take the risk themselves, rather than everyone bearing the risk through increased holiday costs - didn't most of Europe's infection come via ski resorts?)

ABTA won’t, ATOL may, the government is also making noises that they will back holidays. The big danger is holidays that are not cancelled but which you can’t take cos of government restrictions; when Spain was taken off the air corridor list airlines didn’t cancel all flights (they have started now, two weeks later), that meant that you either accepted a credit if not going or went and took the quarantine (that no one is abiding by...)

Switzerland may well be taken off the safe countries list in the coming days, I went there last week and was very uncomfortable that masks were not worn anywhere.

A high profile carrier flew from Singapore with Covid to a ski resort and on to the UK, ski resorts themselves are not hives of plague though.

 

[weltweit]

..
A high profile carrier flew from Singapore with Covid to a ski resort and on to the UK, ski resorts themselves are not hives of plague though.

Yes, that was right near the start of the UK's covid story iirc. It was that one you were referring to?

 

[mx wcfc]

Yes, that was right near the start of the UK's covid story iirc. It was that one you were referring to?

It was the one I was referring too, yes.

 

[return of caleb]

Even the countries that managed the virus better than the UK are repeatedly having trouble. I more and more think that it's NZ that's got it right: total suppression, full enforced quarantine at the border. Both morally and in economic terms it looks like the winning strategy. I know it's difficult to do from the situation we're now in, but it's not impossible and I think it's going to be better than managing these waves - and the economic and human cost of that - until the mythical vaccine is found.

Do you think it would realistically be possible in the UK?
No truck drivers crossing the channel, for example?

I think it would be possible, but it's not realistic as it would require huge political will and have massive social implications that I'm not sure people would accept.

Well, I don't think it's realistic for this bunch, and they've repeatedly sabotaged any chance of anyone taking them seriously so have no political capital except among twats. With another government it would have been realistic and people could have been persuaded if the right approach had been taken from the beginning of saying let's not let people die, instead of normalising constant death from CV-19.

Oof. Hasn't aged well in only a few hours. Four new cases in New Zealand from no known source.

The reality of the suppression vs. eradication debate as it's been played out in the Antipodes is that coronavirus wasn't really 'here' the first time around; I think that context is often lost when New Zealand or - until recently - Australia's success is compared to the criminal handling of the pandemic by the British government.

New Zealand claimed eradication, but this seems to have come at the expense of actually building up public health systems to track and trace new cases. Now unless you're going to close down your borders entirely, 100%, which no country is going to do - and I'm sure you'll agree, is not defensible - you have to live with the possibility that new cases may pop up. You can't close your border 95% of the way and claim eradication; if you do that, you have to have controls in place to identify where cases have arisen from immediately.

I'm not a 'reopen the economy' nutter by any means: I lost a member of my partner's family to coronavirus recently, I know how serious this is. But anybody touting NZ as a model needs to be serious about the social implications of such an 'eradication' strategy to be successful (as NZ's has now proven not to be).