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SheilaNaGig said:
I am being careful, that’s why I’m asking if you guys have any thoughts about it.

One of the things I’m bit :hmm: about it how one doctor in NY can be finding something “new” when so many other doctors have had weeks of close up experience. Is he just desperately trying to invent a new approach out of his own desperation?

But I’m als looking at that initial report from the Italian doctor too.

All the rest use the NY doctor and the Italian doctor as their only source. So it’s all highly speculative.

But as I’ve said elsewhere, with a pandemic the sample size is necessarily enormous so trends can be spotted anecdotally (like the anosmia, which wasn’t reported by the Chinese so far as I’m aware). And the sheer force of speed and volume of cases might obstruct critical thinking...?

But yes, please trust that I’m asbolutely not taking this at face value,
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Yeah was more aimed at others.
 
Concernedlocal said:
Well "thinking" is the key word here... Just can't stand we are in this situation with literally no solution. How the hell can that even happen and nobody giving any sort of clear outcome
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Avoiding catching the virus is solution number 1.
Stopping the spread will hopefully lead to the virus dying away for the near future. Doesnt mean it wont come back but hopefully by then pharmaceutical labs might have a vaccine.
As for pandemics happening? They happen. People have been warning about them for donkeys years. The unacceptable part is that in the past 15 years of capitalism and money grabbing big pharmaceutical companies and labs have spent more time making face creams than time on for example, SARS vaccines. Hospitals have been left to rot over the past 20 years so they're not prepared either.
This should make you think.
 
Edie said:
SheilaNaGig To be honest I don’t really understand what he’s saying. Afaik it’s a virus (a Coronavirus), that causes a pneumonia (inflammation or infection of lower airways, seen on a radiograph), that in a subset of patients with overwhelming inflammation can lead to Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS- which is a syndrome, basically a constellation of symptoms that are present- including inflammatory infiltrate or fluid in the lungs leading to respiratory distress).

What’s he disagreeing with? Maybe I don’t understand.

Pulmonary oedema just means fluid in the lungs, it’s a sign not a diagnosis, can be caused by different pathology,: heart failure or ARDS or altitude.
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Thank you for taking the time to reply,

He’s not contradicting anything. He was saying yes, it’s a virus / viral pneumonia as sequelae in some Px. But other Px are presenting with hypoxia but no dyspnea. He’s seeing low blood o2 and the ground glass lungs , but no loss of volume in the lungs. He says he doesnt understand that. He’s saying on presentation some Px are showing Sx that might suggest altitude sickness : confusion, lethargy etc. No doubt those would also accompany fever + malaise assoc. w/ acute URTI.


It might all be the desperate casting about for something, anything, that could give him a chunk of hope for Tx. But an Italian front line doctor mentions something similar and so I was just wondering if anyone on our front line might have seen/heard similar thoughts.

As I said to LynnDoyleCooper , I’m not jumping on this with anything approaching belief, but it’s made me curious.


The article I linked and quoted in the post immediately following the one you replied to sums up his thoughts.
 
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SheilaNaGig said:
Thank you for taking the time to reply,

He’s not contradicting anything. He was saying yes, it’s a virus / viral pneumonia as sequelae in some Px. But other Px are presenting with hypoxia but no dyspnea. He’s seeing low blood o2 and the ground glass lungs , but no loss of volume in the lungs. He says he doesnt understand that. He’s saying on presentation some Px are showing Sx that might suggest altitude sickness : confusion, lethargy etc. No doubt those would also accompany fever + malaise assoc. w/ acute URTI.


It might all be the desperate casting about for something, anything, that could give him a chunk of hope for Tx. But an Italian front line doctor mentions something similar and so I was just wondering if anyone on our front line might have seen/heard similar thoughts.

As I said to LynnDoyleCooper , I’m not jumping on this with anything approaching belief, but it’s made me curious.


The article I linked and quoted in the post immediately following the one you replied to sums up his thoughts.
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Kind of related I posted something on the NHS healthcare workers thread that's worth a read I think.
 
SheilaNaGig said:
Thank you for taking the time to reply,

He’s not contradicting anything. He was saying yes, it’s a virus / viral pneumonia as sequelae in some Px. But other Px are presenting with hypoxia but no dyspnea. He’s seeing low blood o2 and the grounds glass lungs , but no loss of volume in the lungs. He says he doesnt understand that. He’s saying on presentation some Px are showing Sx that might suggest altitude sickness : confusion, lethargy etc. No doubt those would also accompany fever + malaise assoc. w/ acute URTI.


It might all be the desperate casting about for something, anything, that could give him a chunk of hope for Tx. But an Italian front line doctor mentions something similar and so I was just wondering if anyone on our front line might have seen/heard similar thoughts.

As I said to LynnDoyleCooper , I’m not jumping on this with anything approaching belief, but it’s made me curious.
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It’s all a bit non-sense tbh mate. Like, I’m sure you probably can be hypoxic (not enough oxygen reaching the tissues) without being dyspnoic (which is just the medical term for short of breath or increased respiratory rate). For example, in exhausted patients in terminal phase. But most hypoxic patients will be short of breath. And we know that people with covid are hypoxic and short of breath.

Ground glass just refers to the appearance on CT.

Im still not sure what point he’s making?
 
Edie said:
It’s all a bit non-sense tbh mate. Like, I’m sure you probably can be hypoxic (not enough oxygen reaching the tissues) without being dyspnoic (which is just the medical term for short of breath or increased respiratory rate). For example, in exhausted patients in terminal phase. But most hypoxic patients will be short of breath. And we know that people with covid are hypoxic and short of breath.

Ground glass just refers to the appearance on CT.

Im still not sure what point he’s making?
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I know what those words and terms mean, that’s why I used them :)

The main point he’s making is that maybe intubation / ventilation might not be best practice in all cases.

I’m in no position to argue his case. I was just curious as to whether he was seeing something real and useful that supports Dr Gattinoni’s hypothesis, or if he’s grasping at straws.
 
EU science chief resigns, slamming bloc’s coronavirus response
The president of the EU’s top science funding agency stepped down Tuesday, issuing a damning indictment of the bloc’s response to the coronavirus crisis.

Mauro Ferrari, an Italian-American scientist who has led the European Research Council since January, said he had resigned following a dispute over the EU’s approach to the crisis — stating he has “lost faith in the system.”
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..
As well as a failure to fund scientists to tackle the crisis, Ferrari cited a “complete absence of coordination of health care policies among member states, the recurrent opposition to cohesive financial support initiatives, the pervasive one-sided border closures, and the marginal scale of synergistic scientific initiatives” by the EU.
..
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Ferrari said his proposal that the council “establish a special program directed at combating Covid-19” was “rejected unanimously by the governing body of the ERC.”
..
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from 08/04/2020 EU science chief resigns, slamming bloc’s coronavirus response
 
2h ago 11:37

Not surprising but still useful to know which deaths have not been counted in countries.

The latest figures come amid speculation that the actual number of Covid-19 deaths in Spain is much higher than official figures.

Recently released data from judicial authorities in Madrid, for example, suggest that 6,600 more people than usual died in the last two weeks of March, compared with the official tally of 3,500 Covid-19 deaths in the region.

When pressed, the health minister argued that Spain’s criteria ranks among the most stringent in Europe. “Everyone who tests positive and dies is counted as having died due to the coronavirus,” Illa told reporters.
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His explanation suggests that those who have died in elderly care homes and private residences – the vast majority of whom were not tested for the virus – are not included in the data.

Spain’s justice ministry has responded by requesting judicial authorities to urgently send all records of burials and cremations that have taken place since emergency measures were imposed in mid-March, according to broadcaster Cadena Ser.
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Concernedlocal said:
What is the difference between a new vaccine and some of these others they think will help? Shouldn't they focus on the ones already out there, they all keep getting spoken about by Trump and UK government so must have legs right?
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Trump is hawking a malarial cure he has an interest in. His mate Bolsonaro seems keen on it as well. If you want to buy into this medicine show, that's your choice. But the hydroxychloroquine is only in a trial stage for treating C-19. And there are nasty side effects, apparently.
 
krtek a houby said:
Trump is hawking a malarial cure he has an interest in. His mate Bolsonaro seems keen on it as well. If you want to buy into this medicine show, that's your choice. But the hydroxychloroquine is only in a trial stage for treating C-19. And there are nasty side effects, apparently.
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Yes, nasty side effects, and a real risk of death if the dose is too high.

It has a narrow therapeutic window for malaria, meaning that the dose that helps is very close to the dose that harms and even kills. The bit in between where therapy and help can be found is narrow,
 
SheilaNaGig said:
Yes, nasty side effects, and a real risk of death if the dose is too high.

It has a narrow therapeutic window for malaria, meaning that the dose that helps is very close to the dose that harms and even kills. The bit in between where therapy and help can be found is narrow,
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The more I think about it the less useful it seems in terms of a useful therapy that could be widely applied.

Even if it works, people with C-19 are presenting with varying symptoms, and they can deteriorate really fast. How would the clinician find the right dose and the correct moment to give it to bring about the best outcome? I think at present it could only be a last resort medicine.
 
Bizarrely, we have a stockpile of hydroxychloroquine. The kabbess was given a 3 month supply in January as a speculative treatment for a condition she has. But she stopped after three days because she was getting side effects and it didn’t seem worth it for the purely speculative benefits. As a result, we have a whole load of it sitting on the kitchen counter.
 
I'm reasonably familiar with chloroquine as I was advised to take it several times in my younger years whilst travelling around. I don't know whether it was they hydroxy version. Anyway in short, it sent me mental every time I took it and now I'd never take it. I'd rather risk malaria.

Horrible side affects.
 
Yorkshirelad said:
A new way of life is about to unfold get ready. This is a test... The next one will make you think about it, if you haven't already. Think about it!
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Let me guess... it's all a plot by the Illuminati space lizards to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. The only way to defeat this is to buy overpriced, possibly contaminated supplements and only listen to news if it's being misread and distorted by some purple-faced yelling twat.

You didn't give us much to go on, so I had to fill in some gaps.
 
Bit of an aside, but I wonder what impact isolation will be having on other contagious illnesses such as measles?

I recently started a small chicken pox epidemic after getting shingles (which may have arisen spontaneously due to my immunusupressanets) that went through both of my sons and got as far as another kid at the childminder’s place just as the lockdown commenced. Possibly it went no further!
 
NoXion said:
Let me guess... it's all a plot by the Illuminati space lizards to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids. The only way to defeat this is to buy overpriced, possibly contaminated supplements and only listen to news if it's being misread and distorted by some purple-faced yelling twat.

You didn't give us much to go on, so I had to fill in some gaps.
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No its all about the corona virus. What did you think it was about purple faced yelling twat. Like always most people interpret the wrong meaning bloody hell get a grip. It's all about flicking the switch, at any given time. This is just a trial to see how we will respond. Think about it.
 
Yorkshirelad said:
No its all about the corona virus. What did you think it was about purple faced yelling twat. Like always most people interpret the wrong meaning bloody hell get a grip. It's all about flicking the switch, at any given time. This is just a trial to see how we will respond. Think about it.
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How is it a trial? Nobody planned for this virus, which is why a whole load of people are fucking dying.
 
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