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Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

I'll stick this quote here since its Hancock acknowledging that excess deaths is the true measure.



From 12:36 of https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-55055295

And the latest graph from Deaths in UK 'a fifth higher than normal levels'

View attachment 240251

I remember someone from the ONS being interviewed on TV around the end of April/early May, explaining they were only counting covid deaths, when covid was mentioned on the death certificate.

He went on to explain there were additional excess deaths, mainly put down to alzheimer's, dementia or a non specific cause such as 'old age', he said there was no reason for these peaks, and that they suspected that they should have been recorded as covid deaths.

Also a funeral director friend, who was dealing with a big increase in funerals, told me at the time that some doctors simply refused to put covid on the death certificate without a positive test, and of course we weren't testing much at the time, especially not testing people that had died.

All of which would suggest most, if not all, of those excesses deaths back at the peak were indeed down to covid.
 
Yeah,, and its the same story during nn-pandemic times too, which is why excesss winter death figures are paid attention to every year.

During the first wave the daily deaths reported by government were so limited (mostly only hospital deaths for quite some time during that period) that the ONS death certificate deaths were considerably higher than the daily numbers. But the daily numbers have been much improved since then, and in this second wave there are some dates where the ONS deaths via death certificate mentioning Covid-19 are actually failing to keep up with the daily government figures.

Excess death figures aren't perfect either. Events such as influenza epidemics can affect the 5 year average, and the effects of the virus, healthcare issues, lockdown measures and recession are a complex mix. For example less deaths of certain kinds are expected at the start of a recession/lower economic activity due to things including pollution levels, and it takes quite a long time before recessions are expected to lead to more deaths rather than fewer deaths. The negative consequences of lockdowns were also very unlikely to lead to statistically significant deaths during the peak of the first wave. But Im not including affected hospital services in that, which will have had their own consequences. And a bunch of other stuff that I can't be arsed to drone on about right now. The point is that these things impact where the baseline of non-covid deaths should be, above which deaths are counted as excess. And the baseline will be further out of whack with reality if, for example, we end up with far fewer flu deaths than normal over winter, since those deaths in previous seasons are baked into the 5 year averages. And its not like we count normal flu deaths properly either, so I cannot simply remove all the flu deaths from the last 5 years figures to come up with a more appropriate baseline for a winter that lacks flu deaths.
 
Apologies if already posted, but I'm about 10 pages behind. There's not much background in this story, but it's an extended clip of an elderly woman being arrested after protesting outside the bill and linda gates foundation in London. Really not a good look and perfect ammo for anti vacc conspiracists and others:
There really needs to be a serious push in persuading people to accept the vaccine. Needs to be a mature and informed discussion. Suspect some of that will come when the vaccine(s) become available, but the damage will be done by then. Feels to me like the field has been left open for the loons to peddle their wares and to weave vaccines into all sorts of other narratives.
 
Apologies if already posted, but I'm about 10 pages behind. There's not much background in this story, but it's an extended clip of an elderly woman being arrested after protesting outside the bill and linda gates foundation in London. Really not a good look and perfect ammo for anti vacc conspiracists and others:
There really needs to be a serious push in persuading people to accept the vaccine. Needs to be a mature and informed discussion. Suspect some of that will come when the vaccine(s) become available, but the damage will be done by then. Feels to me like the field has been left open for the loons to peddle their wares and to weave vaccines into all sorts of other narratives.

What did she get nicked for? It doesn't matter what shit you are coming out with, you are still allowed to protest.
 
Apologies if already posted, but I'm about 10 pages behind. There's not much background in this story, but it's an extended clip of an elderly woman being arrested after protesting outside the bill and linda gates foundation in London. Really not a good look and perfect ammo for anti vacc conspiracists and others:
There really needs to be a serious push in persuading people to accept the vaccine. Needs to be a mature and informed discussion. Suspect some of that will come when the vaccine(s) become available, but the damage will be done by then. Feels to me like the field has been left open for the loons to peddle their wares and to weave vaccines into all sorts of other narratives.

I am sure plenty of anti-vaxxers will change their minds when they find they can't go on holiday aboard unless they are vaccinated.
 
I am sure plenty of anti-vaxxers will change their minds when they find they can't go on holiday aboard unless they are vaccinated.
I'm sure that's right and there's going to have to be some 'official' proof that you've had the vaccine for any of that to work. But aside from all that, insurance companies will no doubt be asking covid related questions when it comes to insuring travellers. In fact, and this is a wild guess, I wonder whether questions about travel and vaccinations might at some point be entirely delegated to insurance companies (maybe not in the first few months after vaccines become available)?
 
Anyone have any thoughts about when is a reasonable time frame to start making assessments about how effective (or otherwise) the November lockdown / mockdown has been?
 
What did she get nicked for? It doesn't matter what shit you are coming out with, you are still allowed to protest.

Depends on what you're doing and where, and of course it matters what shit you're coming out with, threatening, hate speech, being disruptive, etc. Not to mention the vagaries of the police that deal with you. There's no blanket, "I'm protesting therefore it's allowed."
 
That's deaths isn't it. Wouldn't new infections be more telling and we'd need a week or two yet? I dunno. Cases do seem to be drifting downwards as far as I can tell.

Deaths is the last thing to filter through isn't it. Cases then hospitalisations then deaths. So if deaths are plateauing you'd expect the first two to have done the same already - although the cases figures are probably less reliable I guess.
 
Deaths is the last thing to filter through isn't it. Cases then hospitalisations then deaths. So if deaths are plateauing you'd expect the first two to have done the same already - although the cases figures are probably less reliable I guess.
AFAIA, yes...deaths lag 3 to 4 weeks behind any effective intervention.
 
Deaths is the last thing to filter through isn't it. Cases then hospitalisations then deaths. So if deaths are plateauing you'd expect the first two to have done the same already - although the cases figures are probably less reliable I guess.

Yes sure. I'm just thinking that there were signs that things were beginning to turn before the second lockdown started which could account for a proportion of the plateauing of deaths.
 
That's deaths isn't it. Wouldn't new infections be more telling and we'd need a week or two yet? I dunno. Cases do seem to be drifting downwards as far as I can tell.

Yep, only 11,299 new cases reported today, although the number of tests are down around 70k compared to last Tue., so there could be an issue with today's figures, but there has certainly been a downward trend over the last few days.

The number of covid cases in hospital seem to have started to go down too, although the drop is fairly small, the next few days will give a better idea of what's happening.

That will not be reflected in number of deaths for another 2-4 weeks.
 
You reckon?

Yes, there were signs and indeed talk that tier 3 in particular might be working (edit having a positive effect) and / or the peak of the second wave may passed. This is infections of course which lags onto...

tbh that graph from elbows looks like Lockdown 2 was about a month too late.

Quite possibly / probably. There were a lot of people calling for that circuit breaker around half term.
 
You what.

You seem to what to say something, feel free.

If cases per 100,000 per were levelling off at the start of the month than a level of that would be reflected in deaths at the end of the month? I know there is other factors as who the virus is spreading to etc.

I just would like to know when we can start judging the effectiveness of the last month. Its fairly standard thing to try and take stock of decisions made etc.

ETA: To add further to this my reading of the this Covid-19 in the UK: How many coronavirus cases are there in your area? is that there are areas where cases are rising, most prominently in the South East, East and London. Rising cases after what was supposed to be a lockdown doesn't sound great to me.
 
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Yes, there were signs and indeed talk that tier 3 in particular might be working (edit having a positive effect) and / or the peak of the second wave may passed. This is infections of course which lags onto...



Quite possibly / probably. There were a lot of people calling for that circuit breaker around half term.
In some limited (T3 areas) there is some evidence that the interventions were bringing the case number under some degree of control, but not the extent that it can explain much of the current, apparent plateauing.

Knowsley Council leader Graham Morgan said he believed the restrictions were working, but the area remained "far from being in a good position".
 
The lag picture between different sorts of data and between behavioural changes and our ability to see the results of those changes is really quite a messy picture that often fails to live up to the simplistic timescales that get mentioned in the press etc.

I attempted to graph different sorts of data in order to see what the lag looked like in the first and second waves, in the London lockdown thread earlier (because thats where it came up in conversation) #410

The first time round, where the brakes were more strongly applied, there was only about 2 weeks between lockdown being formally implemented and the number of daily deaths peaking. But massive behavioural changes that showed up via things like measures of mobility plummeting happened a week earlier than that, around the time Johnson asked people not to go to the pub. And a somewhat milder version of behavioural changes had been underway for even longer than that.

The current deaths by date of death numbers are not necessarily a total plateau, but with every passing day I am more likely to describe them as that. And at the very least they will end up as a much reduced rate of increase in deaths, the trajectory of death increases we saw until recently should have started to show up by now in more recent numbers if it was going to happen. Either that or there has been some kind of data fuckup, but with such an obviously similarity in numbers over a good number of days, I'd really hope that someone would have double-checked for that possibility by now. But hope is not enough, and I dont like to make assumptions about how quickly government will spot its own mistakes, so I suppose I cannot completely exclude that possibility yet.
 
This is the latest daily hospital admissions regional picture I have available, using daily data from Statistics » COVID-19 Hospital Activity

Its very similar to a graph I think someone posted from IndieSAGE recently, except theirs is adjusted for population size of each region and mine is not.

First graph is smoothed out using rolling 7 day averages so for anyone who wants to see the raw version, I've put it in spoiler tags.

Screenshot 2020-11-24 at 17.56.42.png
Screenshot 2020-11-24 at 17.56.55.png
 
South East hospital admissions still seem to be going up. :(

Yes. This is what I was trying to get at. The situation seems quite confused with some very positive signs in the North and Midlands but worrying stuff elsewhere. I would have hoped at this stage we would all have been on a downward trend to some degree.

The Zoe app has painted a not good picture for London for a few days now. I don't really understand it.
 
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