Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[elbows]

Sure. I know this, I'm just saying what I think they should do. I remain utterly convinced that that unless we address the real honking great problem in our education sector we are just treading water until vaccination. All the meanwhile more and more damage is done to the economy, peoples lives and the future of the next generation.

Broadly speaking the government mission is just to have the NHS survive a challenging winter, and to have various things not grind to a halt. Other ambitions include keeping education open, even if its a massively disrupted mess.

So I know what you mean but surviving a challenging winter in a pandemic like this one is far more than simply treading water in my eyes. And winter pressure mean other ambitions have to be placed to one side for a while, to varying extents. Various parts of their economic agenda that they attempted in the summer are not compatible with winter, and they know it.

Now obviously they've done so many things wrong and a lack of ambition in the pandemic plans was part of the original problem with our orthodoxies pandemic approach. I'd rather have been talking about an attempt to suppress virus levels right down to a very low level over the summer than all the stuff we've actually had to talk about then and since. But since it clear that their plans never pointed in that direction, trying to manage the numbers to keep them within what they think is reasonable range for the NHS to just about cope with is their game here. And then they expect vaccines to gradually offer them a way back to their orthodox comfort zone. And no matter how much they fuck things up, I cannot see all this as simply treading water, and even the useless Johnson can't stop spring and summer eventually arriving.

They will temporarily sacrifice their ambitions in regards keeping education open only if they end up with a lot of data that points towards doom. And they know that if they can play for time, normal school/uni holidays loom on the horizon again, giving them some temporary wiggle room over that period without having to do pandemic closures.

 

[Teaboy]

But case numbers are coming down in the North West and North East, without closing the schools - not only would the government not deem it necessary under those circumstances, 'm not sure what the reason would be - much less how you'd get people to consent to it.

If case numbers are coming down to that degree there should be no need for tier 3 anyway. If there is need for tier 3 can we not do more? I mentioned this on another thread but the potential and actual damage that is being done out there to some kids is far greater and more profound than missing a couple of weeks of not understanding trigonometry.

I know I'm doing correlation, but by the time line of this most recent wave seems stark to me. Also the nice little blip we had after half term. A lot of people here are worried about Christmas, increasingly I'm not because schools / uni's will be off so we'll probably see a net positive.

 

[Teaboy]

In Ireland (RoI) they have kept schools open, and yet they have seen new daily cases drop from almost 1,200 to under 400.

Although they were sensible enough to lockdown again some 2 weeks before England did.

Yes but they shut everything down except the schools. I've spoken to guys out there in construction who were in tears down the phone.

I want the schools to stay open, I want children to get a good education and be happy. My point is that its hard to have a happy childhood if your parents are falling apart around you as I know all too well.

 

[Cid]

Yes but they shut everything down except the schools. I've spoken to guys out there in construction who were in tears down the phone.

I want the schools to stay open, I want children to get a good education and be happy. My point is that its hard to have a happy childhood if your parents are falling apart around you as I know all too well.

Construction isn't shut down. It is in fact doing relatively well, though I imagine this varies across the sector.

 

[Teaboy]

Construction isn't shut down. It is in fact doing relatively well, though I imagine this varies across the sector.

OK, well I'm talking about the heavy side and new projects. I've spoken with several guys who had just taken possession and had to stop.

 

[killer b]

If case numbers are coming down to that degree there should be no need for tier 3 anyway. If there is need for tier 3 can we not do more?

I'm not sure what you want - you want case numbers reducing - fine, it's happening in the north, plateauing elsewhere and I'm fairly sure about to follow. So the current measures are working. The fact that the numbers are falling in the north first - where we were in tier 3 for a couple of weeks ahead of the national lockdown - suggests to me that tier 3 is probably enough to keep things on a downwards trajectory once we're out of the current restrictions.

What are you hoping closing the schools would achieve? It'd make cases drop a bit faster for the time they were closed, but not to the point where we'd be able to fully open up afterwards. Whatever happens we're still basically hanging on with half the economy closed until spring and the vaccine.

 

[frogwoman]

‘Let us disobey’: Churches defy lockdown with secret meetings

Gathering in barns, cafes and bookshops, worshippers are flocking to illegal services around the country

www.theguardian.com

 

[Weller]

I did go out on my own for an English breakfast but couldn't remember why I felt the urgency to do so. Perhaps it was just before this four weeks of restrictions (I refuse to use the meaningless l word )

If they open pub again I literally will sit there on my own and have a meal and get drunk, purely for the change of scene.

Id do the same but our local last time for those on thier own you had to pre book a table lucky if you got one and then stay was limited to 2.15 hrs which sadly wasnt anywhere near enough time to get pissed with the slow table service and 1 drink only allowed on the table too
I found it a nightmare trying to get drunk in a change of scenery living on my own with the no households mixing indoors tier ruling
In summer I ate and drank outdoors but that is out of the question now if we wont even be able to cuddle to keep warm outside
This time I really fear for peoples mental health especially living alone and away from family through this winter many I have spoken with at work etc have said that they feel depression and other mental health issues that they haven't felt for many years returning some you can see it in their faces now before they say anything
Its difficult to understand people and problems at work too if having to shout from a distance away behind a mask and screen unable to see the mouth too it gets very stressful and frustrating at least the pub gave a little break from that scenery with a nice meal or just trying to get drunk on your own people watching , seeing those you knew were still ok or whatever

 

[Teaboy]

I'm not sure what you want - you want case numbers reducing - fine, it's happening in the north, plateauing elsewhere and I'm fairly sure about to follow. So the current measures are working. The fact that the numbers are falling in the north first - where we were in tier 3 for a couple of weeks ahead of the national lockdown - suggests to me that tier 3 is probably enough to keep things on a downwards trajectory once we're out of the current restrictions.

What are you hoping closing the schools would achieve? It'd make cases drop a bit faster for the time they were closed, but not to the point where we'd be able to fully open up afterwards. Whatever happens we're still basically hanging on with half the economy closed until spring and the vaccine.

I guess I'm arguing that the damage being caused by tier 3 / lockdown is greater than a circuit breaker in education.

I'm really pleased that things are going in the right direction in your area but when I look at my local area it seems blindingly obvious that the vast majority of our problems are based in the education sector. This is not about blame, blame is a useless concept. Its about trying to have something left when we come out of this.

I'll leave it to future historians to decide whether the decision to let the virus rip through our education system was a good one.

 

[killer b]

So you're suggesting closing the schools and opening the pubs?

 

[elbows]

In Ireland (RoI) they have kept schools open, and yet they have seen new daily cases drop from almost 1,200 to under 400.

Although they were sensible enough to lockdown again some 2 weeks before England did.

I dont think the results have met their full expectations. I think I read that they hoped that most areas after lockdown would end up with a lower level of restrictions than it now seems likely they will have to decide to go for in the coming days. Because the rate of new cases hasn't gone down to as low a level as they were hoping for.

Meanwhile I saw but did not previously have time to comment on Northern Ireland agreeing new restrictions (2 week circuit break to come in on the 27th), I was somewhat interested in the details mentioned in the 2nd of the two articles I'm linking to. I have only quoted a few of the ones of interest.

Coronavirus: Foster denies DUP U-turn on restrictions

First Minister Arlene Foster says evidence presented to the Executive 'has changed' from last week.

www.bbc.co.uk

Stormont ministers know that last week was very damaging for executive relations.

That penny particularly dropped with the DUP.

DUP ministers, I think, found themselves in a place where they were very fearful that they were on the wrong side of this argument and would be blamed if something went catastrophically wrong.
There was an absolute screeching u-turn, a 180-degree turn.

Coronavirus: How Northern Ireland's new restrictions affect you

The latest guidance on the new restrictions that have been imposed across the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

• From Friday 27 November, restaurants, cafes pubs, and bars can only offer takeaway, drive-through or delivery
• All takeaway businesses must close by 23:00
• Off-licences and supermarkets must not sell alcohol after 20:00
• Food served in motorway services, airports and harbour terminals is exempt

• From 27 November, places of worship must close, except for funerals and weddings, which were limited to 25 people with no receptions, regardless of venue

• Soft play areas reopened from 14 September after an original date for reopening on 7 August was postponed, but must close again on 27 November

 

[killer b]

I'm really pleased that things are going in the right direction in your area

I'm not saying my area is doing well so it's all fine btw - I'm saying we've been locked down for a few weeks longer than you so it can give you a rough guide of what's probably coming for the rest of the country.

 

[Teaboy]

So you're suggesting closing the schools and opening the pubs?

No. Though it will be interesting to see what happen in NYC in the next few weeks.

I'm arguing if that if we are to take drastic measures we should ensure that it is worthwhile and we get a good outcome. If we're going to do the damage we are to peoples lives, livelihoods and futures we should do better than a slight improvement for a bit.

 

[Cid]

OK, well I'm talking about the heavy side and new projects. I've spoken with several guys who had just taken possession and had to stop.

Civil engineering projects have taken something of a knock... and obviously there is going to be a lot of rethinking of office projects. But none of this is because lockdown is keeping the sector closed.

 

[Cid]

No. Though it will be interesting to see what happen in NYC in the next few weeks.

I'm arguing if that if we are to take drastic measures we should ensure that it is worthwhile and we get a good outcome. If we're going to do the damage we are to peoples lives, livelihoods and futures we should do better than a slight improvement for a bit.

It's not a slight improvement, it's ditch measures to keep healthcare functioning. The whole crisis has been totally mismanaged, and we shouldn't be in this position. But given where we are, this kind of light measures lockdown is the minimum needed. As it happens I think the approach to education is daft and counter-productive. But more stringent measures there would be in addition to current stuff, not instead of.

 

[elbows]

I see all manner of details are continuing to be leaked to the press. A new round of promises based on various mass testing ideas, including changes to self-isolation rules for contacts of a positive case, Christmas stuff, and some retail closures relaxed but hospitality tier rules strengthened.

Mass Covid-19 testing to start in England to head off Tory revolt

Proposals include plans to limit self-isolation and to allow household mixing at Christmas

www.theguardian.com

Boris Johnson will on Monday outline plans for a tougher three-tiered set of restrictions to come into force once current measures lift on 2 December. He is also expected to unveil proposals for a temporary UK-wide relaxation to allow mixing between households over Christmas.

It is understood that all the new tiers will allow nonessential shops and gyms to remain open. Rules for pubs and restaurants will vary between tiers, but will be tougher overall than under the previous system, addressing a well-identified source of infection but dismaying the hospitality industry.

Also I havent got as much energy as I'd like for the quest of pissing on the shitheads of the Covid Recovery group, but I'm sure my rants would be on the usual themes that are well known by now.

In a starkly worded letter to the prime minister, 70 Tory MPs from the newly formed Covid Recovery Group said the government must prove the new restrictions “will save more lives than they cost”.

The letter, also signed by 14 Conservative peers, told Johnson that a tiered system “infringes deeply upon people’s lives with huge health and economic costs”.

They wrote: “We cannot support this approach further unless the government demonstrates the restrictions proposed for after 2 December will have an impact on slowing the transmission of Covid, and will save more lives than they cost.

“To this end, [the] government must publish a full cost-benefit analysis of the proposed restrictions on a regional basis so that MPs can assess responsibly the non-Covid health impact of restrictions, as well as the undoubted impact on livelihoods.”

 

[elbows]

Oh actually the BBC version of the story suggests I will have to wait at least one extra day before hearing the Christmas plans. I'm sure I'll cope.

Covid: Boris Johnson to unveil post-English lockdown plans

Boris Johnson will unveil the latest Covid plans, including lifting a ban on outdoor grassroots sport.

www.bbc.co.uk

The PM had hoped to announce arrangements for the Christmas period on Monday, but this has been delayed until at least Tuesday to allow the Scottish and Welsh cabinets to agree the plans.

 

[frogwoman]

Self-isolation to be scrapped for Covid case contacts, Government reveals

Under new plans, contacts of those infected will take daily tests for a week and not be made to stay home

www.telegraph.co.uk

What could possibly go wrong lol

 

[William of Walworth]

(This exchange is from page 350 -- apologies )

Someone has just shared this on Facebook. This is from a nurse at a hospital in an area which isn’t considered to have a particularly high level of cases compared to areas in the north.
Frontline nurse at UK’s Royal Bournemouth Hospital speaks out as COVID-19 cases surge

This seems an accurate reflection of what is going on in my trust.
She is so right about the unions.
Before this year I never considered not being in a union.....but now I am.

I read that arricle and it's a shocker

Could you maybe explain though, why you might think leaving a union is going to help any healthcare professional in any way??

I do get why the union doesn't come out of that story well in any way , but surely? the only way to improve, even a bit, a union's effectiveness is by staying in it and by some members having a bit of time to be active ...... I know most members will be too busy -- but my point stands I think .......

 

[Mation]

‘Let us disobey’: Churches defy lockdown with secret meetings

Gathering in barns, cafes and bookshops, worshippers are flocking to illegal services around the country

www.theguardian.com

some sort of joke about repetitive beads

 

[LDC]

(This exchange is from page 350 -- apologies )





I read that arricle and it's a shocker

Could you maybe explain though, why you might think leaving a union is going to help any healthcare professional in any way??

I do get why the union doesn't come out of that story well in any way , but surely? the only way to improve, even a bit, a union's effectiveness is by staying in it and by some members having a bit of time to be active ...... I know most members will be too busy -- but my point stands I think .......

Leaving wouldn't help exactly, I just think people often leave in frustration after trying to get anything done through the union.

From the article:

"In the hospital, most of us are members of the Royal College of Nursing, Unison and Unite. I wonder what these trade unions are doing. They’ve not lifted a finger even when their members have died while trying to save the lives of others. The unions are busy working with the management and the government after throwing their members to the wolves."

And what they suggest as an alternative:

"I think we need to take matters on to our own hands and build independent safety committees of workers, separate from the unions, to safeguard the health and well-being of patients and staff."

 

[LDC]

‘Let us disobey’: Churches defy lockdown with secret meetings

Gathering in barns, cafes and bookshops, worshippers are flocking to illegal services around the country

www.theguardian.com

Fuck them. And fuck all those Tory MPs threatening to revolt over new restrictions. And also fuck all the moaning business owners insisting their sector must stay open too.

 

[redsquirrel]

Loads of (semi) ex-healthcare workers in my sector criticise the RCN for being especially shit.
And the response from unions generally has been crap, as the person quoted in that article says too much working with management.

The last few weeks I've seen people on U75 talk about left infighting or ideological purity but the actions of my union (at both the national and branch level) have exposed that any infighting is less about ideological purity and more about real existing political difference.
Is the purpose of unions to sit on committees, look over policies, effectively act as second, more worker friendly HR department or is it to organise, empower and build a membership capable of forcing management to make concessions. I argue the latter but I'm having to make that argument against branch committee members as much as against management.

 

[LDC]

Yup, especially over PPE unions threw workers under the bus. And then reversed back over us.

 

[frogwoman]

Fuck them. And fuck all those Tory MPs threatening to revolt over new restrictions. And also fuck all the moaning business owners insisting their sector must stay open too.

Yeah, everyone has their favourite thing that they think is essential and has to stay open. I do agree that people should be paid properly to compensate for this period tho.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm struggling to find out the reason why self isolation is going to be scrapped, the WHO says it's a corner stone of an effective response, (more so than lockdown etc) just pay people properly so they can afford to do it ffs.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I'm struggling to find out the reason why self isolation is going to be scrapped, the WHO says it's a corner stone of an effective response, (more so than lockdown etc) just pay people properly so they can afford to do it ffs.

Something something hard working families something something


Because the only thing that matters about you is that you work.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Sky has just reported that Johnson will be speaking about the new restrictions at 3.30pm today, I assume in the commons.

 

[StoneRoad]

Fuck them. And fuck all those Tory MPs threatening to revolt over new restrictions. And also fuck all the moaning business owners insisting their sector must stay open too.

If you want businesses to stay shut - or deeply restricted - then proper financial support is required. Otherwise, without income - of some form - at least matching expenditure, they'll go bust, and no-body wants that in the long run. Whether the re-instated furlough scheme on it's own is enough, or whether more support is needed will depend on the sector.

[my little company has work for less than half staff until maybe January, then nothing. We are in a massive workshop with good ventilation, wearing masks etc.
I had thought that one of three possible jobs would materialise soon, but as yet, it looks like they're not happening, Furlough will cover most of my staffing costs after that work finished, but not all of it, but the other costs will steadily overwhelm what's left of my income streams without a new project eg rent, energy supplies, service charges ...]

 

[Teaboy]

Sky has just reported that Johnson will be speaking about the new restrictions at 3.30pm today, I assume in the commons.

That'll be to explain the new "beefed up" tier system. Thursday will be the announcement which will let us know which tier we are going into in December.