Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Mation]

I'm not buying it, from someone who has posted abstracts of scientific academic papers on here, along with some interpretation and opinion on them, that you are "unable to follow" the Covid guidelines posted on the gov.uk website, as they apply to an individual, for day to day activities.

I'm not saying that things couldn't be clearer, or that they couldn't be presented better.

But there does seem to be a growing thing on here that we can't ever suggest that people have to take some kind of personal responsibility for, and put some effort into, understanding what the current rules are, and following them.

That because we've got an idiot prime minister and rubbish government, everything is all their fault and individuals are virtually exempt from blame for anything.

Most of the things that I observe, where people are doing stuff that (a) isn't what current rules allow and (b) seem like they probably are likely to have a public health effect, en masse, they aren't things where there's some obscurity to the interpretation of the guidelines, or rely on a knowledge of guidelines that haven't been publicised and discussed widely in the media.

You should do some CPD on specific learning difficulties.

I read a statement or instruction. I read something else that seems contradictory or at odds with the intention of the first thing. A cloud of uncertainty forms. I read the next thing. Cloud of uncertainty multiplies. And so on.

The result is that I don't know what the fuck has been said, or what I'm supposed to focus on, or have any ability to focus. Dopamine says no. And, extraordinarily frustratingly, being aware of the process/situation doesn't change it.

'Intelligence' and 'wilfulness' don't have anything to do with it. And this isn't about not being willing to take personal responsibility. There may well be some of that, in some cases, but I'd guess that if you dig a bit deeper, there's something else underlying it.

Also not saying this is the only thing going on, but it is one thing. There will be others.

I wasn't being facetious about the CPD.

 

[teuchter]

The refusal to understand exhibited here and elsewhere is a direct result of the collapse in trust in the government IMO - it is the government's fault.

It's the government's fault if a loss of trust means people don't believe the rules make sense.

That's different from people claiming to not understand the rules.

 

[frogwoman]

That passage bimble quoted makes literally 0 sense.

 

[kalidarkone]

missed the main bit. Guy now saying hospital admissions are women 20-40 reflecting their jobs and roles in society.

also if spread is within households rather than between households (not sure which) is the main issue then what? Do they support households by providing hotel space for some household members?

NHS does....well more specifically my trust does.

 

[bimble]

That passage bimble quoted makes literally 0 sense.

i think thats true, unless they provide good actionable definitions of 'gather' and 'mingle'. Neither of which have legal definitions. And anyway by that point everyone's attention is lost surely.

 

[killer b]

You should do some CPD on specific learning difficulties.

I read a statement or instruction. I read something else that seems contradictory or at odds with the intention of the first thing. A cloud of uncertainty forms. I read the next thing. Cloud of uncertainty multiplies. And so on.

The result is that I don't know what the fuck has been said, or what I'm supposed to focus on, or have any ability to focus. Dopamine says no. And, extraordinarily frustratingly, being aware of the process/situation doesn't change it.

'Intelligence' and 'wilfulness' don't have anything to do with it. And this isn't about not being willing to take personal responsibility. There may well be some of that, in some cases, but I'd guess that if you dig a bit deeper, there's something else underlying it.

Also not saying this is the only thing going on, but it is one thing. There will be others.

I wasn't being facetious about the CPD.

Was the Bolton Council site easier to get to grips with, out of curiousity?

 

[Mation]

Was the Bolton Council site easier to get to grips with, out of curiousity?

A bit, yes. Parceling the sections/situations off and having FAQ-type questions helps (me).

 

[Mr Retro]

This morning I was hoping for a better, more targeted strategy based on what has been learned so far. Instead it was just an exercise in scaring us, paving the way for some blunt measures to be announced tomorrow.

 

[Thora]

i think thats true, unless they provide good actionable definitions of 'gather' and 'mingle'. Neither of which have legal definitions. And anyway by that point everyone's attention is lost surely.

I'm getting that I can go to a paid-for toddler music class with 10 adults and 15 children in a room, but I can't meet 3 friends and 5 children in the park for free.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I'm getting that I can go to a paid-for toddler music class with 10 adults and 15 children in a room, but I can't meet 3 friends and 5 children in the park for free.

Visiting people in the park doesn’t get money moving.

 

[pesh]

there could be a cafe or an ice-cream van or muggers.

 

[Nine Bob Note]

Visiting people in the park doesn’t get money moving.

Depends if it's at night...

 

[mauvais]

There's a section on Bolton Council's website - prominently signposted when you visit it - that does exactly this.

Local restrictions: what you can or cannot do – Bolton Council

Rise in coronavirus cases sees new measures introduced for Bolton

www.bolton.gov.uk

From here, in 'Bury', five miles from actual Bury, it's three miles to 'Bolton', two to Salford. The local park half a mile away is Manchester. That's four of these fucking things to read and they will be different tomorrow.

I mostly know the rules because I am a fucking Rona nerd. Most people around here aren't even sure they live in Greater Manchester, never mind which bit.

 

[two sheds]

Can I just say that I've got a crap 3rd class degree in electrical and electronic engineering and I've not got a clue what's going on either.

That's more of a general statement though.

 

[Wilf]

I can't be arsed looking at what new restrictions they've put in place or are about to. The thing is, having let people largely do what they want over the Summer, any new rules will probably have about 50% observance compared to observance rates in March/April. And with the return to work/school/university/public transport, the effect of any new measures will be merely to slow down the acceleration in cases. Fucked.

 

[killer b]

From here, in 'Bury', five miles from actual Bury, it's three miles to 'Bolton', two to Salford. The local park half a mile away is Manchester. That's four of these fucking things to read and they will be different tomorrow.

I mostly know the rules because I am a fucking Rona nerd. Most people around here aren't even sure they live in Greater Manchester, never mind which bit.

are Bury, Salford and Manchester not under the same restrictions though?

 

[mauvais]

are Bury, Salford and Manchester not under the same restrictions though?

Currently. But Stockport and Wigan aren't, which I only know by following this topic like a doomscrolling idiot, and FWIW Bury has the same case rate as Bolton did when went into fuller lockdown, so who knows what it'll be like by the end of the week.

 

[andysays]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don’t go out, don’t visit anyone.

if those were the rules, they would indeed be easy to understand, if perhaps difficult to actually follow in practice, but they clearly aren't that at all.

 

[killer b]

Currently. But Stockport and Wigan aren't, which I only know by following this topic like a doomscrolling idiot, and FWIW Bury has the same case rate as Bolton did when went into fuller lockdown, so who knows what it'll be like by the end of the week.

What's the answer? Do you think a national lockdown with blanket rules is appropriate, when infection levels are much lower in some places?

 

[Wilf]

if those were the rules, they would indeed be easy to understand, if perhaps difficult to actually follow in practice, but they clearly aren't that at all.

The rules are like a battered to fuck Pinata, with random government ministers trying to stick a few toffees back up its arse.

 

[elbows]

The press still mostly avoid touching the hospital infection control angles that I rant about with a bargepole.

However I can still appreciate news on this front even when it is framed very differently to how I would do it, and requires some reading between the lines.

The other day I was pointing out that NHS England managements can't do approach in terms of segregating covid and non-covid patients was a big problem in the first wave. And there were no signs of this changing, leading NERVTAG to ask them to reconsider. I dont know what happened next in that behind the scenes story, but now today there is this news:

Some hospitals in England to be kept Covid-free in second wave

Exclusive: NHS England keen to ensure continuation of treatment of cancer and other condition

www.theguardian.com

The story mostly goes for the elective surgery angle rather than getting into all the sensitive areas of this topic but never mind, it amounts to a very similar thing really.

 

[mauvais]

What's the answer? Do you think a national lockdown with blanket rules is appropriate, when infection levels are much lower in some places?

Probably yes. At the very least something a lot less fragmented (and arbitrarily so) than we have now, which is a predictable failure. And conditions that are simpler to define, simpler to detect the breach of. This is fucking nuts:

Clear as a bell
View attachment 231210

Does this even make any sense?

Form two groups, place them together. Break up the groups. Reassign people into new groups and put them back. Legal or not?

 

[Wilf]

The rules are like a battered to fuck Pinata, with random government ministers trying to stick a few toffees back up its arse.

Actually, if I was to allow myself a bit of Frankie Boyle style body shaming, I'd go with 'battered to fuck Pinata' as a description of Johnson himself. But I won't.

 

[killer b]

this is mad shit.

Coronavirus: Grandparents exempt from local lockdown rules for childcare reasons

Health Secretary Matt Hancock announces a change to the rules for millions living under local measures in England.

news.sky.com

 

[killer b]

Probably yes. At the very least something a lot less fragmented (and arbitrarily so) than we have now, which is a predictable failure. And conditions that are simpler to define, simpler to detect the breach of.

I dunno why I'm arguing with you, I was saying earlier how I didn't think complex variable restrictions will really work anymore...

 

[two sheds]

Clear as a bell
View attachment 231210

"The rule above does not mean that there cannot be ..." . Now there's someone with a razor sharp mind.

Do they mean rule 3.18? or perhaps even rule 3.17? and say yay for the double negative

 

[elbows]

this is mad shit.

Coronavirus: Grandparents exempt from local lockdown rules for childcare reasons

Health Secretary Matt Hancock announces a change to the rules for millions living under local measures in England.

news.sky.com

Its a reflection of their priorities.

Hancock:

For many, informal childcare arrangements are a lifeline without which they couldn't do their jobs.

It does not allow for play dates or parties, but it does mean that a consistent childcare relationship that is vital for somebody to get to work is allowed

The flaws in this plan are obvious. But I suppose I will acknowledge that jobs includes healthcare jobs and they are probably shitting bricks about likely levels of NHS staff absences in various autumn/winter scenarios.

 

[NoXion]

Fuck all this stupid loophole-hunting in the idiot government's restrictions. Just stay the fuck at home and keep away from as many people as possible. That's simple, easy to remember. Even easier to do.

 

[maomao]

Fuck all this stupid loophole-hunting in the idiot government's restrictions. Just stay the fuck at home and keep away from as many people as possible. That's simple, easy to remember. Even easier to do.

What if you're a nurse with rent to pay and kids to feed and you rely on your parents for childcare to allow you to work?

 

[maomao]

Its a reflection of their priorities.

Hancock:





The flaws in this plan are obvious. But I suppose I will acknowledge that jobs includes healthcare jobs and they are probably shitting bricks about likely levels of NHS staff absences in various autumn/winter scenarios.

What was mad was private nurseries being kept open and grandparents banned from looking after kids.