Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[killer b]

It should be in a clear, poster style format with helpful graphics that can be absorbed by the average punter in less than one minute. With a link at the bottom saying ‘if you own a business you are legally required to check this other bit’

There's a section on Bolton Council's website - prominently signposted when you visit it - that does exactly this.

Local restrictions: what you can or cannot do – Bolton Council

Rise in coronavirus cases sees new measures introduced for Bolton

www.bolton.gov.uk

 

[teuchter]

I disagree. The areas that confuse people are the ones related to the things they don’t do every day but engage in from time to time. I can imagine somebody doing something (permissible) in a school or village hall that involves food and not bring sure what they’re allowed to actually do, for example.

Yeah, they might need to look up the rules if they want to do something like that.

I dunno if I want to go to an event in a village hall, with multiple attendees and food, in the middle of a pandemic, that is being organised by someone that can't read and understand written instructions. It's not like they are written in obscure legal language. I agree with Cid that putting certain things in graphic format would be helpful but there's a certain level of detail that you can't convey that way.

 

[Cid]

Buried?

Each section has a bold headline, making it easy to find the relevant information.

Look, for me - law degree first class with a cherry on top - it’s a fucking doddle. But it should not be designed for me.

 

[kabbes]

I do find it a bit strange for intelligent people on here with professional jobs and so on to be claiming it's all that difficult for them to find the relevant info.

That’s a straw man. Nobody is claiming it’s actually difficult to find information. Just that it’s difficult to remember all the details, confusing because it keeps changing (the confusion is in remembering what rules apply here and now rather than last week), confusing because there are lots of subclauses (which makes it difficult to remember) and confusing because there is no strand of logic (which makes it difficult to hold in your head as a coherent pattern).

Another example is my question earlier about whether the six people are allowed to be from more than two households. Checking the information, I see that this is not addressed, meaning that I have to rely on the default assumption that all six can come from different households. But a few weeks ago, it was only two households. In a few more weeks it might be back to two households again. The system relies on my willingness to constantly check up on today’s rules. That’s confusing.

 

[frogwoman]

Sikora, Heneghan etc are back in the news saying that the government's proposed covid restrictions are unjustified and that the risk from covid doesn't justify them.

 

[bimble]

This Coronavirus outbreak FAQs: what you can and can't do is a huge amount of information. Much of it seems arbitrary and it is not at all clear to me exactly which things are exempt from for instance the rule of 6. I’ve spent some time reading that load of text and I think but am not entirely sure it says I can’t go to the yoga class i was planning to attend tomorrow because it’s not organised by a ‘club’. It doesn’t go into the legal definition of a club. It is by no means easy to understand these rules, imo.

 

[teuchter]

That’s a straw man. Nobody is claiming it’s actually difficult to find information.

Yes they are.

 

[chilango]

That’s a straw man. Nobody is claiming it’s actually difficult to find information. Just that it’s difficult to remember all the details, confusing because it keeps changing (the confusion is in remembering what rules apply here and now rather than last week), confusing because there are lots of subclauses (which makes it difficult to remember) and confusing because there is no strand of logic (which makes it difficult to hold in your head as a coherent pattern).

Another example is my question earlier about whether the six people are allowed to be from more than two households. Checking the information, I see that this is not addressed, meaning that I have to rely on the default assumption that all six can come from different households. But a few weeks ago, it was only two households. In a few more weeks it might be back to two households again. The system relies on my willingness to constantly check up on today’s rules. That’s confusing.

...and confusing 'cos as you start reading (I just read the Bolton ones that killer b linked to above) you very quickly start thinking "that's bollocks" and the unfairness, arbitrariness and naked prioritization of money over lives quickly generates a red mist of rage that impairs your ability to continue to read with clarity.

...at least that's how it is for me!

 

[killer b]

you very quickly start thinking "that's bollocks" and the unfairness, arbitrariness and naked prioritization of money over lives quickly generates a red mist of rage that impairs your ability to continue to read with clarity.

I think this is what's happening, yeah.

 

[teuchter]

...and confusing 'cos as you start reading (I just read the Bolton ones that killer b linked to above) you very quickly start thinking "that's bollocks" and the unfairness, arbitrariness and naked prioritization of money over lives quickly generates a red mist of rage that impairs your ability to continue to read with clarity.

...at least that's how it is for me!

In other words, you don't like the rules because of your political views. Not because you're unable to follow or understand them.

Just like the conspiracy nutters in trafalgar square.

 

[chilango]

In other words, you don't like the rules because of your political views. Not because you're unable to follow or understand them.

Just like the conspiracy nutters in trafalgar square.

yep. just like that. all politics is just the same.

 

[Orang Utan]

there definitely is too much information to process, in the news and on here and other social media. Lots of graphs and long posts that I will never read cos it's pretty dull if you find it all a bit nerdy and detailed. can see why there might be confusion amongst some of us.

 

[Mation]

Look, for me - law degree first class with a cherry on top - it’s a fucking doddle. But it should not be designed for me.

But also for me - BSc (first class honours and highest marks in the uni in any discipline), MSc, PGCE, several awards for ooh aren't I fabness - it isn't clear or easy to follow. It should be designed for everyone. Not everyone is neurotypical, amongst the many reasons why clarity is essential.

 

[bimble]

Clear as a bell

 

[chilango]

Clear as a bell
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Great. Parties it is then. I fucking hate mingling.

 

[maomao]

Clear as a bell
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Yep. Are you a single visitor to your yoga class or are you part of a yoga group? People can visit pubs individually and be more than six to a room, why not yoga classes?

 

[frogwoman]

Clear as a bell
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I don't understand that.

 

[maomao]

Meanwhile my uni has yet to cancel the superspreader event I have to go to tomorrow. I'm going to wear an N95 mask throughout.

 

[bimble]

Just seen a few things online with various yoga teachers debating how to interpret the rules. Some saying it’s more like church (allowed) than it is a social gathering (not) as long as nobody talks to each other. It’s not good.

 

[elbows]

I had a quick look at how Triggles pandemic output went down on Twitter.

I dont suppose anybody knows more about this, such as which MP?

 

[cupid_stunt]

Clear as a bell
View attachment 231210

What's unclear about that?

Seems simple enough, basically the same as it is in pubs & restaurants, maximum group size is 6, multiple groups of 6 are allowed, as long as each group is socially distanced from each other.

 

[bimble]

No, the key is the term Mingle. Which I am looking for clarity on. Just like any normal busy person would do obvs.

 

[prunus]

Clear as a bell
View attachment 231210

I think 3.16 is more relevant to yoga perhaps? (excerpt):

Organised dance and exercise classes can take place in groups of more than six, where a risk assessment has been carried out, but you should limit your social interaction with other participants. The relevant indoor sport facilities guidance or outdoor guidancemust be followed for these activities. Organised Sport and Physical Activity events are allowed provided they follow guidance for the public on the phased return of outdoor sport and recreation in England.

 

[killer b]

I had a quick look at how Triggles pandemic output went down on Twitter.

I dont suppose anybody knows more about this, such as which MP?

The tweeter is in Gloucestershire, which only has one female MP, Siobhan Baillie

 

[teuchter]

But also for me - BSc (first class honours and highest marks in the uni in any discipline), MSc, PGCE, several awards for ooh aren't I fabness - it isn't clear or easy to follow. It should be designed for everyone. Not everyone is neurotypical, amongst the many reasons why clarity is essential.

I'm not buying it, from someone who has posted abstracts of scientific academic papers on here, along with some interpretation and opinion on them, that you are "unable to follow" the Covid guidelines posted on the gov.uk website, as they apply to an individual, for day to day activities.

I'm not saying that things couldn't be clearer, or that they couldn't be presented better.

But there does seem to be a growing thing on here that we can't ever suggest that people have to take some kind of personal responsibility for, and put some effort into, understanding what the current rules are, and following them.

That because we've got an idiot prime minister and rubbish government, everything is all their fault and individuals are virtually exempt from blame for anything.

Most of the things that I observe, where people are doing stuff that (a) isn't what current rules allow and (b) seem like they probably are likely to have a public health effect, en masse, they aren't things where there's some obscurity to the interpretation of the guidelines, or rely on a knowledge of guidelines that haven't been publicised and discussed widely in the media.

 

[maomao]

The tweeter is in Gloucestershire, which only has one female MP, Siobhan Baillie

Who is also the only female Tory MP Triggle is following.

 

[cupid_stunt]

No, the key is the term Mingle. Which I am looking for clarity on. Just like any normal busy person would do obvs.

The different groups must be socially distanced, therefore people from different groups shouldn't mingle, because that would break the socially distance rules.

 

[bimble]

I think 3.16 is more relevant to yoga perhaps? (excerpt):

Organised dance and exercise classes can take place in groups of more than six, where a risk assessment has been carried out, but you should limit your social interaction with other participants. The relevant indoor sport facilities guidance or outdoor guidancemust be followed for these activities. Organised Sport and Physical Activity events are allowed provided they follow guidance for the public on the phased return of outdoor sport and recreation in England.

I think so too. The word Organised, in that extract, is an unexplained qualifier though.

 

[bimble]

The different groups must be socially distanced, therefore people from different groups shouldn't mingle, because that would break the socially distance rules.

You think the definition of mingle is to get within 2m of someone?
church services are on, without attempts to seat people in groups of 6, but they’re not allowed any tea and biscuits or chatting after. So it’s not as simple as that.

 

[killer b]

But there does seem to be a growing thing on here that we can't ever suggest that people have to take some kind of personal responsibility for, and put some effort into, understanding what the current rules are, and following them.

That because we've got an idiot prime minister and rubbish government, everything is all their fault and individuals are virtually exempt from blame for anything.

The refusal to understand exhibited here and elsewhere is a direct result of the collapse in trust in the government IMO - it is the government's fault.