Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion

[Teaboy]

There is some talk still of a 2 week circuit breaker lockdown. I'm not convinced that would be much use, I can't see where its been successfully deployed elsewhere. Any full lockdown would need to be a month at least I would have thought.

 

[Mation]

I strongly suspect it will look like the Bolton restrictions, applied nationally. You might think of that as more like the latter of your two possibilities, I don't know.

[Withdrawn] Bolton: local restrictions

Find out what you can and cannot do if you live, work or travel in Bolton.

www.gov.uk

How is anyone supposed to follow that? It's fucking nonsense, practically and healthwise. No chance of being effective whatsoever.

 

[killer b]

How is anyone supposed to follow that? It's fucking nonsense, practically and healthwise. No chance of being effective whatsoever.

Other than the pubs doing take-out only, the restrictions listed are more or less the same as these for pretty much the whole of the north-west. They aren't difficult to follow, you just don't visit people who aren't in your support bubble or go to parties for the most part.

 

[Mation]

Other than the pubs doing take-out only, the restrictions listed are more or less the same as these for pretty much the whole of the north-west. They aren't difficult to follow, you just don't visit people who aren't in your support bubble or go to parties for the most part.

They may not be difficult for you to follow, but I can't follow them. (Not as in won't, or don't want to, but can't read any sense in them or see clearly what to do, or how the things that are permitted support stopping the spread.)

 

[teuchter]

They may not be difficult for you to follow, but I can't follow them. (Not as in won't, or don't want to, but can't read any sense in them or see clearly what to do, or how the things that are permitted support stopping the spread.)

What are examples of scenarios where it's unclear to you what you are allowed to do?

 

[killer b]

They may not be difficult for you to follow, but I can't follow them. (Not as in won't, or don't want to, but can't read any sense in them or see clearly what to do, or how the things that are permitted support stopping the spread.)

What are you struggling to understand? The restrictions are aimed trying to prevent households mixing except in specific & very reduced circumstances. That's all. You might disagree with some of the exceptions, you might think it's not strict enough (or too strict) but I don't think there's anything there that's actually hard to understand is there?

 

[Orang Utan]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don’t go out, don’t visit anyone.

 

[Mation]

What are examples of scenarios where it's unclear to you what you are allowed to do?

I don't know, because I can't hold much of it in my head.

This is like the proverbial shopkeeper who, in response to a shopper asking for a particular product, says: "I keep telling people, there's no demand for it!"

If many people are repeatedly saying that the rules aren't clear, it doesn't matter how clear the writer thinks they are, and they won't be made any clearer by stating that they are in fact clear. By definition, clear instructions are ones that can be understood by most people.

We need a full lockdown, for health and compliance.

 

[Mation]

What are you struggling to understand? The restrictions are aimed trying to prevent households mixing except in specific & very reduced circumstances. That's all. You might disagree with some of the exceptions, you might think it's not strict enough (or too strict) but I don't think there's anything there that's actually hard to understand is there?

Yes. I find it hard to follow. Genuinely so. I keep saying that. Why can't you understand that it's hard for some people who aren't you to understand?!

 

[Brainaddict]

Seems pretty straightforward to me. Don’t go out, don’t visit anyone.

Not sure about the first bit. The rules sensibly restrict what can happen indoors but seem to leave space for outdoor activities, including meeting people in small groups.

My mental summary was: stick to your household, except for meeting in groups of 6 or less in parks.

 

[Orang Utan]

Not sure about the first bit. The rules sensibly restrict what can happen indoors but seem to leave space for outdoor activities, including meeting people in small groups.

Aye, but better be safe than sorry

 

[Brainaddict]

Aye, but better be safe than sorry

That's you making up your own rules. I thought we were trying to summarise the government's rules for clarity.

 

[Ms Ordinary]

Things that make you go hmm.

1. My mate has spent the last week delivering covid screens to London business offices.

I really do find this kind of "performance hygiene" particularly irritating, lately.

It feels like "Get back in to work! No, we don't have any plans to improve ventilation, reduce numbers in offices or encourage distancing - but don't worry, here's a crappy perspex screen & some posters about handwashing & some petty rules about touching stuff and - look! - sanitizer dispensers everywhere. Oh, yeah, and we've taken away the office microwave & kettle in case you touch them, but you can pop out to Pret instead..."

And obvs I don't want to stop anyone washing their hands or practicing basic hygiene, but i think we do now know that airborne transmission and badly ventilated, enclosed spaces are a bigger problem than surface transmission?, and a perspex sneeze-catcher isn't really going to help with that.

 

[teuchter]

I don't know, because I can't hold much of it in my head.

This is like the proverbial shopkeeper who, in response to a shopper asking for a particular product, says: "I keep telling people, there's no demand for it!"

If many people are repeatedly saying that the rules aren't clear, it doesn't matter how clear the writer thinks they are, and they won't be made any clearer by stating that they are in fact clear. By definition, clear instructions are ones that can be understood by most people.

We need a full lockdown, for health and compliance.

What's a "full lockdown"?

 

[kabbes]

What are examples of scenarios where it's unclear to you what you are allowed to do?

Unclear is not the same as difficult to remember or follow the implementation or otherwise be difficult. For example, one bullet point from the section about places that can serve takeaway food but not other food is:

• cafes including workplace canteens (not including cafes or canteens at hospitals, care homes, schools, prisons, establishments intended for the use of naval, military or air force purposes and for providing food or drink to the homeless)

Nice and easy then.

 

[Thora]

Don't go to other people's houses/have people to yours unless someone is being paid
Don't go to crowded, poorly ventilated indoor spaces unless it's your workplace or school

 

[Mation]

What's a "full lockdown"?

What we had in March-May.

 

[killer b]

There was a large list of exceptions and clauses in the March/May lockdown too tbf. Did you find those hard to follow?

 

[teuchter]

Unclear is not the same as difficult to remember ir follow the implementation or otherwise be difficult. For example, one bullet point in places that can serve takeaway food but not other food is:

• cafes including workplace canteens (not including cafes or canteens at hospitals, care homes, schools, prisons, establishments intended for the use of naval, military or air force purposes and for providing food or drink to the homeless)

Nice and easy then.

But these guidelines are for business owners and operators to interpret, not the general public. I think it's reasonable to expect someone running a business or organising events to be able to understand something like that.

For most people, the restrictions they need to know about are those relating to meeting people socially, and travel.

 

[Cid]

But these guidelines are for business owners and operators to interpret, not the general public. I think it's reasonable to expect someone running a business or organising events to be able to understand something like that.

For most people, the restrictions they need to know about are those relating to meeting people socially, and travel.

Which are buried in the same guidance.

 

[killer b]

all the way down in section 2.

(it probably should be section 1, tbf)

 

[weepiper]

My interpretation of what Nicola Sturgeon said is that she wants to roll back quite a lot of the things that we have opened up recently in order to keep community transmission low enough to keep schools open, thinks the UK government should be doing the same, and is waiting for the promised COBRA meeting to see if the furlough scheme will be extended before announcing that pubs, hospitality and non essential businesses will be closed again.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Which are buried in the same guidance.

Buried?

Each section has a bold headline, making it easy to find the relevant information.

 

[elbows]

Triggle tweaked his stance in an article about the Whitty & Vallance talk today, but its still a load of shit. The timing of this well-worn Triggle pattern is very clear, its always at moment like this, and his side of the 'debate' always lose. Because they can chat whatever shit they like in order to diminish the number of deaths, but the number of deaths is hardly the prime consideration of the government in the first place. Rather, its all about NHS capacity, and thats what forces the governments hand despite the outcry from shitheads.

Covid-19: UK could face 50,000 cases a day by October without action - Vallance

"Speed" and "action" are required to halt the rise in cases, the UK's chief scientific adviser warns.

www.bbc.co.uk

Even among the government's own advisers there is disagreement over whether what we are seeing is the start of an exponential rise or just a gradual increase in cases, which is what you would expect at this time of year as respiratory viruses tend to circulate more with the reopening of society.

Bullshit. Its exponential growth and the main quibble would be what exactly the doubling time is.

But the big unanswered question is what ministers will do next. There is talk of further restrictions being introduced, but that is far from certain.

A couple of things are in our favour that were not in the spring. Better treatments for those who get very sick are now available, while the government is in a better position to protect the vulnerable groups.

They are not really in a better position to protect vulnerable groups if they let the number of cases rise by a very large amount.

Should ministers wait and see what happens? Or should they crack down early, knowing that will have a negative impact in other ways?

Contrary to what he says, there is no lack of certainty that further restrictions will be introduced. Its only the detail and precise timing that has some uncertainty about it.

Thy are not going to 'wait and see what happens' because something at least of that lesson was learnt the hard way last time.

Contrast his absolute shit with what Kuenssberg said in the same article.

It is not a question of "if".

Downing Street will have to introduce extra restrictions to try to slow down the dramatic resurgence of coronavirus.

 

[Mation]

There was a large list of exceptions and clauses in the March/May lockdown too tbf. Did you find those hard to follow?

No. So something about the messaging was probably different.

However. Give it up.

You don't find this hard to follow. Others do.

We probably both want effective measures to stop the spread.

 

[teuchter]

Which are buried in the same guidance.

Sure. There should probably be a simplified version of the rules for those who find it difficult to read long passages of text, and for whom many of the rules are not relevant. Don't disagree there.

I do find it a bit strange for intelligent people on here with professional jobs and so on to be claiming it's all that difficult for them to find the relevant info.

 

[Cid]

all the way down in section 2.

(it probably should be section 1, tbf)

It should be in a clear, poster style format with helpful graphics that can be absorbed by the average punter in less than one minute. With a link at the bottom saying ‘if you own a business you are legally required to check this other bit’

 

[Mation]

I do find it a bit strange for intelligent people on here with professional jobs and so on to be claiming it's all that difficult for them to find the relevant info.

But that's more about you than about them.

 

[kabbes]

But these guidelines are for business owners and operators to interpret, not the general public. I think it's reasonable to expect someone running a business or organising events to be able to understand something like that.

For most people, the restrictions they need to know about are those relating to meeting people socially, and travel.

I disagree. The areas that confuse people are the ones related to the things they don’t do every day but engage in from time to time. I can imagine somebody doing something (permissible) in a school or village hall that involves food and not bring sure what they’re allowed to actually do, for example.

 

[kabbes]

Which are buried in the same guidance.

Yes, this too!