littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not sure that is proportionate at the moment, though, given community infection levels. A lot of effort for very little comparative gain.
Coronavirus in the UK - news, lockdown and discussion
- Thread starter Sasaferrato
- Start date
Steel Icarus
ersatz maven
Mrs SI went to the shops today as she has every 4-5 days since "lockdown". Says it's patently obvious social distancing has largely gone for a burton, with kids all over the place, families shopping together, shoppers in aisles looking askance at her waiting for them to leave an aisle. Next door had a bbq at the weekend.
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My neighbours on either side of me seem to be having regular bbq's/garden parties. I find it difficult to believe all the voices coming over the fence live there.
The messaging from the government on this has been absolutely woeful. I'm not surprised at all people are giving up. Those daily briefings are a joke. Hancock seems to be answering completely different questions to what he's just been asked.
sheothebudworths
Up the bum - no babies!!!
The briefing today includes the fact that we are now exceeding daily testing compared to South Korea and are approaching the number that Germany undertakes, as if those numbers have any relevance while they have also been testing at massively higher rates for much longer and where they also employed vigorous track and trace - manipulative nonsense.
Hancock (and Johnson) also really get on my tits with the constant arm movements to illustrate how well we are doing - down to imply EFFECTIVE SUPPRESSION and up to imply GREATER TESTING.
Does this shit come from the behavioural scientists?
I just find it really awkward and obvious and patronising - and Hancock's feels, particularly, like a really unnatural replication of what Boris does with such creepy ease - neither of them using any sort of similar body language to accompany the numbers on deaths, or any other growths or lack of growth that may be significant but not 'positives'. Urgh.
Hancock (and Johnson) also really get on my tits with the constant arm movements to illustrate how well we are doing - down to imply EFFECTIVE SUPPRESSION and up to imply GREATER TESTING.
Does this shit come from the behavioural scientists?
I just find it really awkward and obvious and patronising - and Hancock's feels, particularly, like a really unnatural replication of what Boris does with such creepy ease - neither of them using any sort of similar body language to accompany the numbers on deaths, or any other growths or lack of growth that may be significant but not 'positives'. Urgh.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Does this seem right? If it is Starmer hasnt hit the right spot has he?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Anecdotally the Labour members and strong supporters I know think Starmer is on the wrong track with going on about a lockdown exit plan, so it's a believable survey to me. And personally I agree, I think we're nowhere near that stage yet. Giving out a plan or timetable for something that is so open to adaptation when/if the circumstances change just seems stupid and setting yourself up for criticism. Not to mention the confusion it will create with the public and it'll also be the excuse some people want to ease off on things now.
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cupid_stunt
Chief seagull hater & farmerbarleymow's nemesis.
Close the border
Tamar Bridge too.
I would be happy for a border to be set-up to protect us from the plague ridden areas in the north.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I strongly disagree. The only reason not to lay out a plan in detail now is if you don't have a plan to lay out. With one week to go on its initial lockdown, Switzerland extended lockdown by a week alongside an assurance that things would change after that if the numbers continued to get better. A week later, as numbers were indeed still getting better, it announced its plan in detail, and phase one of that plan started today. Each phase is dependent on the first going well - everything is planned but nothing is set in stone. And people are being treated like grown-ups able to understand and deal with that.
But the Swiss could do that because the test and trace system they wanted was already well developed. By comparison, the UK, which locked down just one week after Switzerland, is miles behind in its preparations. The ongoing lack of a plan is an indication of the ongoing failure of the UK government. That needs calling out.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Yeah exactly
elbows
Well-Known Member
We arent 1 week behind Switzerland in terms of scale of epidemic though. They never went above 75 reported deaths a day. Now their numbers are down to more like 30-40 a day. So they are much closer to the point of changing phase & measures than we are.
I have mixed feelings about lack of detailed UK plan. I'm currently more bothered by the fact the media lost patience with lockdown before a lot of the public did, and drove the narrative ahead of where it should actually have been relative to the actual phase of epidemic here. They seem to have tired of bringing up PPE too
elbows
Well-Known Member
Or to put it another way, if the whole of the UK had the scale of epidemic, and current stage of epidemic that the South West region of England has, then we would be much closer to the Swiss timing, and I would be moaning a lot more about lack of published plan.
I will still moan more generally about the way the public are treated in England in terms of information and public communication, but I am not currently sat here desperate to know the details of the plan. It was sufficient for me, for a while to come at least, to be content with the discovery that they did not intend to recklessly end too many aspects of lockdown too quickly, and that they take testing & tracking seriously for the next phase.
I will still moan more generally about the way the public are treated in England in terms of information and public communication, but I am not currently sat here desperate to know the details of the plan. It was sufficient for me, for a while to come at least, to be content with the discovery that they did not intend to recklessly end too many aspects of lockdown too quickly, and that they take testing & tracking seriously for the next phase.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
I would be happy for a border to be set-up to protect us from the plague ridden areas in the north.
Are you mad! The north begins at Findon (village not valley).
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
Ministers use COVID-19 to destroy children’s safeguards
A statutory instrument published this afternoon makes unprecedented changes to regulations (secondary legislation) relating to the care and protection of vulnerable children and young people. The c…
article39.org.uk
This is demoralising. Not sure this is the right thread but depressingly, the govt have seized an opportunity for further evisceration of local services.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
They've given five points that need to be in place, imo that's enough, starting to talk specifics is a recipe for a disaster and confusion. The media are partly to blame for this I think, they've started going on about it, and Starmer has got caught up in that.
Calling out their failures in dealing with this is fine. Wanting a timetable for an exit plan for something we're right in the middle of is foolish (unless you just want to use it as a stick to beat the Tories with knowing full well it's a lose/lose for them either way) and also detracts from far more important issues we need to sort out now.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
I'm currently more bothered by the fact the media lost patience with lockdown before a lot of the public did, and drove the narrative ahead of where it should actually have been relative to the actual phase of epidemic here. They seem to have tired of bringing up PPE too
Exactly that. I think this call isn't coming from us (the public) it's coming from the media.
elbows
Well-Known Member
As for the longstanding attitude of the UK government in regards the level of detail, trust and sort of tone they use with the UK public, its been crap as standard for as long as I've known, and its worse under tories. Labour had different ways of treating us with contempt on this front, they did
There are still some days where I quite like a fair chunk of the medias press conference questions though. At the minimum we still tend to learn what questions the government and scientific/medical advisors want to dodge.
Peston messed up his R0 question today by thinking 0.5 was the stated goal, so that was a waste. Someone else asked a question I liked that was based on past press conference remarks - they had admitted in the recent past that they think R0 is below 1 in the community, but that isnt necessarily so of care homes and hospitals where they probably suspect it is sometimes still well above 1. So someone asked them what they thought R0 was in those places. They dodged the question via the fact that it wont be a single number, it will vary per individual setting. But it was notable that they steered well clear of giving an example of what it could be in a particular hospital that was struggling with infection control, and some of the hospital-related comments about it from Stephen Powis was potentially misleading (something along the lines of 'deaths in hospital are falling so it must be ok!'). Someone should press them further on this, and more on care homes, in the weeks ahead.
Oh well at least after what I said, Panorama is focussing on some PPE issues. Some of the detail isnt new to everyone but it should help raise awareness of some specific failings.
There are still some days where I quite like a fair chunk of the medias press conference questions though. At the minimum we still tend to learn what questions the government and scientific/medical advisors want to dodge.
Peston messed up his R0 question today by thinking 0.5 was the stated goal, so that was a waste. Someone else asked a question I liked that was based on past press conference remarks - they had admitted in the recent past that they think R0 is below 1 in the community, but that isnt necessarily so of care homes and hospitals where they probably suspect it is sometimes still well above 1. So someone asked them what they thought R0 was in those places. They dodged the question via the fact that it wont be a single number, it will vary per individual setting. But it was notable that they steered well clear of giving an example of what it could be in a particular hospital that was struggling with infection control, and some of the hospital-related comments about it from Stephen Powis was potentially misleading (something along the lines of 'deaths in hospital are falling so it must be ok!'). Someone should press them further on this, and more on care homes, in the weeks ahead.
Oh well at least after what I said, Panorama is focussing on some PPE issues. Some of the detail isnt new to everyone but it should help raise awareness of some specific failings.
Coronavirus: UK failed to stockpile crucial PPE
Failures in the preparation for the coronavirus pandemic are revealed by a BBC investigation.
www.bbc.co.uk
PursuedByBears
Go stick your head in a pig
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
If I was in the UK this world be the first sign of a light at the end of the tunnel
Coronavirus: Greggs to begin reopening shops amid lockdown
The bakery chain plans to reopen a limited number of outlets next month in a "controlled trial".
www.bbc.com
Orang Utan
Psychick Worrier Ov Geyoor
fuck yes - i need my morning coffeeIf I was in the UK this world be the first sign of a light at the end of the tunnel
Coronavirus: Greggs to begin reopening shops amid lockdown
The bakery chain plans to reopen a limited number of outlets next month in a "controlled trial".www.bbc.com
It's only in Newcastle. So you'll have a long bus ride to get your steak-bake and coffee
elbows
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I could divide this up into a number of sections:
Media in general with their line of questioning in recent weeks. Maybe partly sponsored by the strange 'anti-climax' phenomenon which, no matter the feelings of bad taste, was a bit inevitable when hospitals were not utterly flooded and overwhelmed by patients. Not just a media feeling either, some people who work in them probably had the same strange sense, not like they were looking forward to a nightmare, but everyone got hyped up to deal with it and then it didnt come on the scale worst imagined.
Specific people with agendas using the media. The usual suspects who have long peddled shitty herd immunity and anti-lockdown lines. Or the different camps in cabinet who we are told had different ideas about priorities and ending lockdown, and have their media methods.
The public who actually want to know detail or are impatient. There are some. But there are also impatient people who dont care about the detail, the detail of the plan isnt what they are after, they just want to be told 'you can do this again now'. Its the actual timing of changes that is what interests them, and short of specific dates there isnt much in the detail that will help them cope in the meantime.
The problem about not outlining the thinking re a plan is that Raab's 5 points are vague and perceived as subjective and, as was asked today re R, there is no clear position that when reached (how they would know i am not convinced as they have no idea what is happening in care homes) lockdown will be reviewed. What are the metrics behind each of these which means the strategy can be reviewed:
Every briefing though says the peak is past, hence it seems many folk think we are safe...it is all about smart communication, which has been sadly lacking, in fact it has been woeful.
- Making sure the NHS can cope
- Evidence showing a sustained and consistent fall in daily death rates
- Reliable data showing the rate of infection is decreasing to manageable levels
- Being confident in the range of operational challenges, like ensuring testing and the right amount of PPE, are in hand
- Being confident any adjustments will not risk a second peak
Every briefing though says the peak is past, hence it seems many folk think we are safe...it is all about smart communication, which has been sadly lacking, in fact it has been woeful.
elbows
Well-Known Member
From a psychological point of view, it is important to try to give people something at the earliest safe opportunity. But since some aspects of the UK lockdown are quite soft, and some aspects were driven by individual companies and organisations taking matters into their own hands via their own risk assessments, some of the 'R0 wiggle room' is probably going to be used up by changes on these fronts and some peoples somewhat relaxing behaviours, leaving less that the government can offer themselves directly. Partly this government might like aspects of that though, plus they meet with some of these other entities behind the scenes to plan next steps.
I don't know if he's barking up the right tree, but I don't think it's Starmer's job at the moment to be in step with the mood of the country - it's to expose the failing and incompetence of the government.
S☼I said:
Same for us too -- here in my part of Wales, things are nothing like how @S☼I was describing them in his area (?) .
There's probably major variations between different areas as to how well observed are the rules.
Which areas are more representative? The badly behaved ones or the well behaved ones?
Impossible to answer that just by judging from your own zone.
elbows
Well-Known Member
Yeah the past the peak narrative should have been handled more carefully.
As for the detail of the numbers relating to those 5 points, Whitty has talked about the reliable rate of infection data one recently - they have new methods coming online for estimating R0, but this is just beginning now so I suspect we will hear more about that in the coming weeks. Some of the others are also related to that same measure really. Death rate falls I will want more detail on soon, but I'm not desperate yet because its clear the numbers are still too high right now.
But really I suspect that, as often happens with UK governments, they dont actually want to give journalists and the public all of the data, levels and threshold details that would allow us to actually judge for ourselves when the time had arrived for changes. Heaven forbid! And last time they gave us certain numbers and guides, it was shortly before the epidemic really ramped up, and their numbers were useless shit (4 weeks behind Italy etc etc).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The biggest hurdles in those 'five points' are the two things that are in the control of government and should have been sorted weeks ago - testing and tracing regime and adequate ppe. When will they have those two things sorted? They bloody well can and should give us a date for that because they are needed asap whatever you're doing about lockdown. About 23 March would have been nice. It's now 27 April. What the fuck have they been doing? That should be the only question to them every day. How are they sorting it? If there are delays, what is causing those delays? But they're still pretending they haven't fucked this whole thing up, so they deflect and dissemble and hide those controllables in among a bunch of non-controllables.
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