Charlie Hebdo massacre and the West's response

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't doubt that they've done important work in the past with refugees etc but do you not see why people were uncomfortable with it and even saw it as a bit dodgy, particularly due to the ends the je suis charlie stuff has been put to by the french state?

I do. One of my first posts on here about this article a few pages back (might have been my first post about it) was one questioning the section about the veil.

 

[frogwoman]

surely 'any way the wind blows, doesn't really matter'

some people working at the guardian genuinely see it as left wing, i think they are wrong but a lot of them do see themselves as that and do see the guardian as a politically committed paper.

 

[Pickman's model]

some people working at the guardian genuinely see it as left wing, i think they are wrong but a lot of them do see themselves as that and do see the guardian as a politically committed paper.

some people at the guardian need a course in remedial politics

 

[redsquirrel]

Maybe. I don't see it as politically committed at all.

Then you must be sleepwalking, the Guardian is totally committed to liberalism hence all the shitty articles bigging up the LibDems, hence the constant attacks on Corbyn. It's mad to say that it's not politically committed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Then you must be sleepwalking, the Guardian is totally committed to liberalism hence all the shitty articles bigging up the LibDems, hence the constant attacks on Corbyn. It's mad to say that it's not politically committed.

Yes their attacks on Corbyn are committed. I was thinking longer term. Their ambivalence towards the Iraq war before it started, for instance.

 

[redsquirrel]

Sorry you've lost me. I think the views of both the Guardian and the Observer pre/during/post the Iraq invasion were classically liberal - "we are doing this to free the Iraqis", "to invade without a UN motion is wrong".

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Sorry you've lost me. I think the views of both the Guardian and the Observer pre/during/post the Iraq invasion were classically liberal - "we are doing this to free the Iraqis", "to invade without a UN motion is wrong".

And then six months later all the reasons why it shouldn't have happened started coming out...

It's a thing I noticed at the time - before and at the start of the war, they could not bring themselves to unequivocally oppose it, but once it started becoming clear to them that it was a fuck-up, then stories surfaced that should have been run months earlier. That's not commitment.

 

[FNG]

I wish people (incuding the media and some people on here) would stop confusing the tactic of 'no platforming' with just someone refusing to share a speaking engagement with a particular person or just saying they shouldn't be listened to. And this is relevant to the Greer discussions too.

I think the article went beyond advocating challenging his views robustly though by drawing a direct line from him being invited to talk and disenfranchised European Muslim youth blowing themselves up in Paris style atacks,that's the overriding impression I got, don't invite him to talk,don't politely ignore the veiled woman ,don't eat the halal bagel filling without complaint, for that's how we ended up here.

 

[danny la rouge]

The Assassin's Veto: Blasphemy and Charlie Hebdo

Well worth a read.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Assassin's Veto: Blasphemy and Charlie Hebdo

Well worth a read.

Indeed it is.

And this is a pretty constant theme...

since Charlie Hebdo cartoonists drew attention to themselves by being murdered, it is now subject to international scrutiny. As a result, its meaning is not just lost but inverted.

 

[frogwoman]

Charlie Hebdo’s latest cartoon depicts Italian earthquake victims as pasta dishes

I dunno the context behind this, no doubt theres a point that doesnt translate properly into english but

 

[andysays]

Charlie Hebdo’s latest cartoon depicts Italian earthquake victims as pasta dishes

I dunno the context behind this, no doubt theres a point that doesnt translate properly into english but

Quoted from the piece you've linked to

The blood is in fact tomato sauce, just as the human suffering is in fact spectacle.

You can agree or disagree with the point, or agree but think it's a crass way of making it, but that appears to be the point they're making, as it has been with some of their other controversial cartoons

 

[frogwoman]

Quoted from the piece you've linked to


You can agree or disagree with the point, or agree but think it's a crass way of making it, but that appears to be the point they're making

That doesnt appear in the cartoon though. Thats just the opinion of the person who wrote about it.

 

[andysays]

That doesnt appear in the cartoon though. Thats just the opinion of the person who wrote about it.

it's not explicitly spelled out, but that doesn't mean it's not contained or intended to be read in it (and I've added to my previous post while you were responding)

 

[frogwoman]

it's not explicitly spelled out, but that doesn't mean it's not contained or intended to be read in it (and I've added to my previous post while you were responding)

But after italians complained over it they did another cartoon saying 'charlie hebdo didnt build your homes the mafia did'. I think the cartoon could certainly be read as that but it seems a lot of people arent getting the joke, even in france, the french embassy just put a statement out distancing themselves from it

 

[andysays]

But after italians complained over it they did another cartoon saying 'charlie hebdo didnt build your homes the mafia did'. I think the cartoon could certainly be read as that but it seems a lot of people arent getting the joke, even in france, the french embassy just put a statement out distancing themselves from it

A lot of people haven't "got the joke" previously, even in France, that doesn't mean the cartoon doesn't have a point, even if we don't appreciate the point or the way they're making it.

Your initial post seemed to be suggesting you couldn't see what the point was/if there really was a point. I'm just suggesting one possible interpretation, no idea if that's the one which was intended or not.

 

[Lurdan]

Frankly confess I'm not at all sure what it's alluding to. My initial assumption is that it's some kind of comment on the fact that, as that Washington Post story states

Consequently, restaurants in Italy and around the world have been donating proceeds from their sales of bowls of spaghetti all’amatriciana to the earthquake relief effort.

Can't say that it tickles my satire bone, nor is it very well drawn in my opinion. However it has undoubtedly generated a great deal of coinage in the parallel economy of online outrage. So trebles all round I'm sure.

 

[Lurdan]

Of course some things about this world are beyond fucking satire

 

[Vintage Paw]

My opinion of them remains what it always has been: if you have to perform mental and linguistic gymnastics to explain why something is satire it's not doing a very good job in the first place.

 

[Idris2002]

My opinion of them remains what it always has been: if you have to perform mental and linguistic gymnastics to explain why something is satire it's not doing a very good job in the first place.

The Irish rip-off of Private Eye, The Phoenix, actually has to have "craic and codology" as a running header on its satire pages - and it used to call them "the funnies"!

 

[Lurdan]

Well Brexit has of course given us a once in a lifetime opportunity to renegotiate the terms of cultural trade with the rest of the world.

We can shout at them VERY LOUDLY and V E R Y S L O W L Y until they get it that it's jolly well not on to make jokes which don't include us, or which contain cultural references we can't possibly be expected to understand, or which don't appeal to that universally recognised sense of fair play and tolerance which formed the very heart and soul of the British Commonwealth.

Whoops getting a bit satirical there - clearly this stuff is contagious. The sooner we can close our borders to this disgraceful rubbish the better!!

(Then again a feeble joke is a feeble joke in any language).

 

[Vintage Paw]

Regardless of whether you believe the Hebdo stuff is racist or not, saying "but it's their culture" doesn't mean something isn't racist nor above criticism for racism.

I'd say we've got a good line in racist culture too.

 

[planetgeli]

But after italians complained over it they did another cartoon saying 'charlie hebdo didnt build your homes the mafia did'.

I think they may have a point. Not saying the original satire wasn't just about as crude as it gets but this follow up isn't far off the truth. I've been in a similar size earthquake in Manila, hardly a shining star of perfection, and saw no damage whatsoever because they build their homes and structures to withstand such things. It's not racist, or generalisation, to point out mafia influence in Italy and how it might affect the odd trivial thing like health and safety.

 

[Skyfallsz]

Charlie Hebdo pisses loads of people off and often they are way beyond the pale, that's a big part of how they see their role

The argument in defence of them being so over the top is that the things that they are commenting on are actual reality and are far more disgusting than any dumb cartoon. The fact that a load of the artists and staff were murdered by Islamists was pretty much the perfect object lesson of that. Of course it's dumb and offensive to make rubbish jokes about horrible events and people's beliefs, but what is much worse is when people feel that they can't make dumb jokes or even hold 'incorrect' opinions about certain things safely

 

[likesfish]

The article was powerful you shouldn't get a pass if your a far right even if your brown with a beard

 

[CNT36]

It's a pity a few of them were murdered but at least this cartoon has finally shown beyond all doubt that they deserved it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It's a pity a few of them were murdered but at least this cartoon has finally shown beyond all doubt that they deserved it.

Are you serious?

If so, why this one and not others?

 

[CNT36]

Are you serious?

If so, why this one and not others?

No.

I see these sentiments elsewhere everytime they post an article or cartoon that is "controversial". All completely anecdotal of course but this time it seems slightly different though as they are very nasty people rather than nasty racists. There seems to be a undercurrent of "it is not even Muslims this time. Surely now they've said nasty things about victims of an Earthquake in a European country you can see why the killers had a point."

 

[andysays]

What a load of fucking nonsense.

No, the people who worked at Charlie Hebdo didn't deserve to die, and no, the killers didn't have a point.

This was true when the killings took place, and it's true now, and it will continue to be true however many cartoons they continue to publish.

It would be true even if the cartoons were racist (which none of them have been, for reasons which have been discussed at length here, even if some people are unable to understand or accept arguments which require them to step slightly outside of their own individual world view).

And it's true even though some of the cartoons are offensive, which they are, but not as offensive as the events which inspire them and which they are satirising, in this case a food manufacturer using this earthquake tragedy as a fucking marketing tool for one of their pizzas.

You silly, silly cunts...

 

[Treacle Toes]

No.

I see these sentiments elsewhere everytime they post an article or cartoon that is "controversial". All completely anecdotal of course but this time it seems slightly different though as they are very nasty people rather than nasty racists. There seems to be a undercurrent of "it is not even Muslims this time. Surely now they've said nasty things about victims of an Earthquake in a European country you can see why the killers had a point."

So you are not expressing your own views then? That wasn't clear from your post so thanks for clarifying.

I personally haven't read any articles or comments which imply they deserved to be killed, got any links to specific things?