Characterising UKIP?

[butchersapron]

After your last couple of embarrassing UKIP outbursts i decided that you weren't worth talking to on this issue. You have so little interest in it and what it says about wider social issues that all you think needs to be said, all that can be said is they're racist. In my post above i tried to outline the basics of what a sensible critical approach to an analysis of UKIP milieu would need to contain (based actually on analysis of the nazi's and the use of the standard movement/party/regime distinctions and each of theirs relation to different interest and power groups). An attempt to get a big of intellectual rigour into the debate. One that those who just want to shout racist would do well to adopt as well. Your response? But they're racist. So no, i don't think i'll be bothering doing all this shit with you again. Thanks though.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Individual loons such as leader Farage talking about a "fifth column" of Muslims against whom 'we' must defend 'our' "Judeo-Christian values". A loon who has previously stirred against anyone not speaking English, Romanies and Romanians. A loon who reportedly speaks of 'nignogs' in private.

Individual loons such as one of the party's two MPs Reckless advocating the 'repatriation' of migrants.

Two of the party's three senior people. Loons.

UKIP does not formally characterise itself as racist. But its leaders are racist. Do you not see parallels here with the newly 'non-racist' FN in France? How are UKIP different from the FN or the Party for Freedom in Holland, or the other more openly racist extreme right parties in Eastern Europe with whom they are aligned?

They are not formally white supremacist like the BNP, but they are racists. Any attempt to characterise UKIP without acknowledging that is going to fail, as any attempt to characterise the FN in France without addressing its racism will fail.

So ask yourself a few questions, such as:

Why are they polling as they are?
Why is Farage so personally-popular on the stump?
Is the party the sum of its' members desires, or only of the leader and the MPs' desires?

Yes, there's a base of racism. it's exactly the same racism that successive politicians from the three mainstream parties have utilised during local, general and by-elections in order to garner support. it's exactly the same scapegoating of minorities that has served party politicians well for hundreds of years. To present UKIP as some kind of uniquely racist party flies in the face of history and of common sense, and focusing on racism rather than on their complete message will burn those who do so,just like it burnt elements of the French left who focused on FN's racism, rather than on addressing their populist policies and why they garnered the support they did - hint: it wasn't about racism.

 

[gareth taylor]

So ask yourself a few questions, such as:

Why are they polling as they are?
Why is Farage so personally-popular on the stump?
Is the party the sum of its' members desires, or only of the leader and the MPs' desires?

Yes, there's a base of racism. it's exactly the same racism that successive politicians from the three mainstream parties have utilised during local, general and by-elections in order to garner support. it's exactly the same scapegoating of minorities that has served party politicians well for hundreds of years. To present UKIP as some kind of uniquely racist party flies in the face of history and of common sense, and focusing on racism rather than on their complete message will burn those who do so,just like it burnt elements of the French left who focused on FN's racism, rather than on addressing their populist policies and why they garnered the support they did - hint: it wasn't about racism.

i am not supporting ukip anymore, they place on people weakness,

I met a ukip official and he took time to speak to me about what they offer that's how I got into them, I will be voting next election but just not for ukip

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So ask yourself a few questions, such as:

Why are they polling as they are?
Why is Farage so personally-popular on the stump?
Is the party the sum of its' members desires, or only of the leader and the MPs' desires?

Yes, there's a base of racism. it's exactly the same racism that successive politicians from the three mainstream parties have utilised during local, general and by-elections in order to garner support. it's exactly the same scapegoating of minorities that has served party politicians well for hundreds of years. To present UKIP as some kind of uniquely racist party flies in the face of history and of common sense, and focusing on racism rather than on their complete message will burn those who do so,just like it burnt elements of the French left who focused on FN's racism, rather than on addressing their populist policies and why they garnered the support they did - hint: it wasn't about racism.

Uniquely racist? No. They are playing on exactly the same kind of racist and xenophobic fears and insecurities that the Tories used to play on, and will also still play on in more subtle ways today. But the Tories, hate them as I do, are more than just xenophobes. UKIP aren't really. Their xenophobia is their key message.

I think the FN isn't quite the best comparison here. The Dutch Freedom Party is. Reading the Freedom Party's policies, I'd be very surprised if Farage isn't consciously nicking from them, right down to issues such as the smoking ban. They take a Dutch slant on things, emphasising gay and lesbian rights for instance as part of the example of what makes the Dutch Dutch - what they call their 'Christian and humanist traditions'. But their agenda is exactly the same - while advocating hard-right low-tax economics and leaving the EU, and blaming all kinds of social and economic ills on immigration, they also outline what it is to be the 'in'-group in the country, culturally, and who it is that does not belong. They distinguish between 'good' immigrants who fit (such as people from certain former colonies such as Suriname - they can claim not to be racist by endorsing 'good' black people) and 'bad' immigrants who don't (basically Muslims).

And in the last few years, they've regularly been polling between 10 and 15 per cent in national elections, around the figure I expect UKIP to get in the general election this year. It is odd to say that playing on racist and xenophobic fears is not central to their appeal - they themselves very very clearly think that it is.

 

[gareth taylor]

Uniquely racist? No. They are playing on exactly the same kind of racist and xenophobic fears and insecurities that the Tories used to play on, and will also still play on in more subtle ways today. But the Tories, hate them as I do, are more than just xenophobes. UKIP aren't really. Their xenophobia is their key message.

I think the FN isn't quite the best comparison here. The Dutch Freedom Party is. Reading the Freedom Party's policies, I'd be very surprised if Farage isn't consciously nicking from them, right down to issues such as the smoking ban. They take a Dutch slant on things, emphasising gay and lesbian rights for instance as part of the example of what makes the Dutch Dutch - what they call their 'Christian and humanist traditions'. But their agenda is exactly the same - while advocating hard-right low-tax economics and leaving the EU, and blaming all kinds of social and economic ills on immigration, they also outline what it is to be the 'in'-group in the country, culturally, and who it is that does not belong. They distinguish between 'good' immigrants who fit (such as people from certain former colonies such as Suriname - they can claim not to be racist by endorsing 'good' black people) and 'bad' immigrants who don't (basically Muslims).

And in the last few years, they've regularly been polling between 10 and 15 per cent in national elections, around the figure I expect UKIP to get in the general election this year. It is odd to say that playing on racist and xenophobic fears is not central to their appeal - they themselves very very clearly think that it is.

one thing does interest me about ukip why has it taken them so many years to win seats, because they have been around since 1992ish

 

[brogdale]

one thing does interest me about ukip why has it taken them so many years to win seats, because they have been around since 1992ish

Until 09-10-14, in elections/by-elections other parties got more votes.

 

[Dogsauce]

one thing does interest me about ukip why has it taken them so many years to win seats, because they have been around since 1992ish

Because the 'traditional' protest vote party turned out to be a bunch of duplicitous bellends, so someone new stepped up giving it the anti-establishment rhetoric.

 

[DotCommunist]

one thing does interest me about ukip why has it taken them so many years to win seats, because they have been around since 1992ish

they were a lunatic fringe before they managed to shape up, kill kilroy and start campaigning on a right-populist platform

 

[BigMoaner]

ukip are popular because they want to slow down immigration and lots of people in this country want to slow down immigration.

they are also popular because a lot of people want to leave Europe, and they want to do that as well.

those two factors, massively important in many people's world views, have been seen, rightly or wrongly, to be ignored by the three main parties.

hence their rise.

 

[gosub]

I'd say there are 2 UKIP's- old UKIP and new UKIP. Old UKIP went on about things like sovereignty and democratic accountability, though at the time these were to most voters abstract concepts and they didn't poll very highly. Then when things like EU forcing budgets in Greece and changing governments in Italy, they became less abstract, bizarrely they switched to New UKIP which seems more about how beastly johnny foreigner is, and the EU slid down their agenda. It has however garnered them more votes.

 

[gareth taylor]

they were a lunatic fringe before they managed to shape up, kill kilroy and start campaigning on a right-populist platform

some people in labour party aren't all there !

 

[Maurice Picarda]

so whats rozanna duncan said now then

It's out now - pretty much as one might expect.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31565770

"I used the word 'negroes' as you would do Asians, Chinese, Muslims, Jews. It's a description, it's not an insult - in the same way as you would say, 'What do you mean by Jewish? Well, they belong to a community, they have got a certain faith, they have usually got noses that have got a bit of a curve to them, married women - if they are orthodox Jews - wear wigs.' It's description."

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Going back to an earlier point that UKIP do best in areas with fewest immigrants, this article puts some numbers on that.

The article does suggest a reason for the seeming paradox - there is a mismatch between the number of people who think immigration is a problem and the number of people thinking that the immigrants living next door are a problem. It appears that it is easier to hate immigration and scapegoat immigrants in the abstract than the concrete.

 

[BigMoaner]

is it racist to want to slow down immigration?

i'd like to live and work in america, but i can't. i don't see that as them being racist, rather they have their own way of doing things and they don't want me there. it's annoying, but so be it - they are a nation and that's the way they want to run things.

i have to admit i would rather immigration, at this moment in time, to be say in the 10s of k instead of the 100s of k. i just think it'd be nice if everyone could settle a bit.

where i live in south london, many of mates, who are second/third gen immigrants, are against further migration of people into their areas from outside the Uk. are they all racists?

 

[laptop]

Going back to an earlier point that UKIP do best in areas with fewest immigrants, this article puts some numbers on that.

The article does suggest a reason for the seeming paradox - there is a mismatch between the number of people who think immigration is a problem and the number of people thinking that the immigrants living next door are a problem. It appears that it is easier to hate immigration and scapegoat immigrants in the abstract than the concrete.

What's odd about that is that City AM in general reckons that Genghis Khan's main problem is that piles of skulls at the city gate were a wet-liberal gesture.

Of course, the banks are worried about immigration controls - saying they fear that they might be applied fairly and keep their people out.

Haven't had the heart to look at the paper recently - has it shifted its position in the past few months?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's odd about that is that City AM in general reckons that Genghis Khan's main problem is that piles of skulls at the city gate were a wet-liberal gesture.

Of course, the banks are worried about immigration controls - saying they fear that they might be applied fairly and keep their people out.

Haven't had the heart to look at the paper recently - has it shifted its position in the past few months?

Doubt it. I'm not defending the paper, but they are a source of the figures, which seem sound. It's not that surprising, and in fact, I take it as a positive: in general, the more everyday contact you have with immigrants, the less likely you are to vote UKIP.

UKIP are relying on ignorance and misconceptions about largely imagined social problems rather than real lived experience of those social problems to get people to vote for them. Speaking very generally, they are getting people who are not doing well economically or socially to blame their problems on a false story - a story of immigrants taking 'their' jobs, housing and social security.

 

[laptop]

Doubt it. I'm not defending the paper, but they are a source of the figures, which seem sound. It's not that surprising, and in fact, I take it as a positive: in general, the more everyday contact you have with immigrants, the less likely you are to vote UKIP.

UKIP are relying on ignorance and misconceptions about largely imagined social problems rather than real lived experience of those social problems to get people to vote for them. Speaking very generally, they are getting people who are not doing well economically or socially to blame their problems on a false story - a story of immigrants taking 'their' jobs, housing and social security.

Not disagreeing with that as part of the story. Just noting the irony* of the source.



* (C) Alanis Morissette 1990-2015

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's only part of the story, yes. Another part is the very straightforward one that they've taken the racist vote from the BNP. They've annihilated the BNP, and at the same time they've actively fomented hostility towards immigration generally and immigrants personally (Farage's racist outbursts about languages on trains, Romanians/Romanies, an Islamic Fifth Column, etc, etc) in order to lay blame on the pro-EU parties for allowing it to happen. Among other things, they have made themselves the happy home of the racist vote.

It's not always that coherent, but it's now a consistent theme: Kilroy may have ranted irrelevantly about Brussels; but Farage rants about almost only one thing now, the open borders. A combination of EU expansion eastwards, a switch here in the UK from net emigration up to the 90s to net immigration since, and economic crisis across the continent leading to the living standards of the majority being squeezed has given Farage his narrative. And he will shamelessly combine it with scare stories about Muslims, just as he shamelessly conflated Romanians with Romanies, because he is relying on misconceptions and ignorance to grow the anti-immigrant vote. The model is there in Holland with Wilders' Freedom Party, and Farage is vigorously pursuing exactly the same tactics.

 

[treelover]

At their conference they have decided to support deficit reduction and a spokesperson on the news said they would work with the conservatives to achieve it.

opportunity for Labour to get back some of their defectors?

btw, Farage has just attended a conference in the U.S with hard right politicians, etc.

 

[nino_savatte]

UKIP has some commonalities with the Tea Party: they're nostalgic for the 1950s; they favour low or no taxes; they want a smaller state, and they're anti-intellectual and reactionary.

Commentators across the board have been hailing the "British Tea Party" for at least a year. Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP, has even tried to launch one, without much success.

The latest to ride on the coat-tails of the popular US movement is Nigel Farage, newly re-elected as UK Independence Party leader. Speaking on Sky News, he said that his party shared the feeling of being "overtaxed, overgoverned, not being listened to". He claimed that this gave the party a "bigger political opportunity than ever before" to recruit Tories dissatisfied with David Cameron's EU-friendly policies.

Could Ukip be the British Tea Party? The two movements do have quite a lot in common: the anti-establishment flavour, the emphasis on small government, the nationalism. They also share a – how do I put this? – certain nuttiness, both groups containing some pretty extreme and off-centre elements.
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2010/11/tea-party-british-gain-ukip

Hannan's Tea Party idea (backed by The Freedom Association, natch) never got off the ground. UKIP seems to have become the very thing Hannan wanted. Yet, he still refuses to follow his best buddy, Doug, into the Kippers.

 

[brogdale]

Here's one characteristic we can dismiss...Farage is not the messiah...

 

[treelover]

I don’t believe Cameron has delivered on his promises. I don’t want to be a member of a club. As Groucho Marx said, I don’t want to join any club that would have me as a member. I always have challenged the establishment and I want to continue to challenge it. I’m giving this money because I believe, as Emerson, Lake and Palmer might put it, Ukip’s political outlook is a ‘fanare for the common man’. I want to back our customers, Daily Express readers, who believe in many of Ukip’s common-sense policies on the EU and immigration and taxation. That is why I am putting my hand in my pocket; it is for my customers, my readers. I hope by doing this, it will encourage more people to do the same.

I want them to stand up like me and be counted. I believe there are still people out there who are frightened to stand up for something new and I hope they will follow my example.

http://order-order.com/2015/04/16/confirmed-desmond-gives-a-million-to-ukip/#_@/SIHMuBkfyZ9OBQ

Desmond has donated 1million to UKIP

 

[starfish]

http://order-order.com/2015/04/16/confirmed-desmond-gives-a-million-to-ukip/#_@/SIHMuBkfyZ9OBQ

Desmond has donated 1million to UKIP

Was just about to say that.

 

[Dan U]

How much did he give labour previously?

 

[butchersapron]

How does this help characterise UKIP?

 

[SikhWarrioR]

Characterising UKIP the right wing of the conservatives on steroids and turned up to eleven

 

[brogdale]

James Meek has produced another worthwhile, perceptive LRB piece about 'Farageland'; this time Grimsby.

I’d come to Grimsby to see why, after seventy years of voting Labour, the town was flirting with the United Kingdom Independence Party. After a while I began wondering what had happened to make Grimsby a wild and lonely enough place for the sandpiper to feel at home. It turns out the reason is the same. Someone, or something, abdicated power in Grimsby, leaving swathes of it to rot.

Trying to describe the mood of the electorate, and why they’re drawn to Ukip, Dunn told me: ‘It’s about emotions, it’s about anger … [The truth] is not something you can easily persuade people of with statistics. That’s not what to listen to any more. They’ve got a feeling something’s not right.

 

[brogdale]

.....whereas, the LP has decided to characterise UKIP as directly comparable with the BNP...

Labour is planning to send out thousands of letters comparing Ukip to the British National party in the seat being targeted by the rightwing party’s leader, Nigel Farage.

In a combative move, the party will target up to 16,000 voters in South Thanet, saying: “The one thing that the BNP [in Barking] had in common with Ukip was the way in which they denigrated the area and the people living there.”

Hmmm

 

[brogdale]

Not characterising, I know, but wtf?

 

[J Ed]

Axelrod hates him! UKIP activist proves party not racist with this one weird trick, you'll never guess what happened next!