Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[editor]

I love this hysterical line that the pro meat propagandists keep spewing out that if people eat less meat then they can only be eating mega processed foods that are supposedly worse for the environment in their place. Which is total bollocks. As proved by:

Environmental impacts of alternative proteins | GFI

Explore the environmental advantages of alternative proteins in diversifying the global food supply. With minimal land and water use, lower GHG emissions, and reduced pollutants, investing in alternative proteins ensures a sustainable and secure food future.

gfi.org

Yes, plant-based meat is better for the planet

The environmental debate over meatless meat, explained.

www.vox.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wish you'd stop shitposting on this thread.

When you provide a link, quote a bit of it or something, and tell us why this link is a good one. We already know how to use google.

 

[Funky_monks]

I wish you'd stop shitposting on this thread.

When you provide a link, quote a bit of it or something, and tell us why this link is a good one. We already know how to use google.

Nah, adverts for meat free meat and articles in Vox are yer actual science.

 

[friedaweed]

Fantastic news

‘There Is No Alternative’: Lidl Announces Plans To Reduce Meat In Stores

Supermarket chain Lidl announced plans to significantly reduce its meat products in favor of sustainable plant-based and vegan alternatives.

plantbasednews.org

No big loss really and probably more of a marketing ploy than anything. I've found Lidl's meat to be sub standard and pretty shite. You only need to look at it to see it's crap. The less budget supermarkets are stocking crap meat all the better for the high street butcher who cares about the produce. Win win.

 

[gentlegreen]

mega processed foods

see also "seed oils" ..

I tend to be at the nutrition end of things ...

It's a confusion of "too many ingredients", "chemicals", etc ...

Whereas what's the most unhealthy food ?
Doughnuts have only what, four ingredients, and all fairly "unchemical" ...

But having adopted a diet based on nutrient density, when I crank up my activity level, I will have to add "empty" calories - even if they're wholegrain rather than Pringles... and definitely not doughnuts

 

[editor]

No big loss really and probably more of a marketing ploy than anything

Oh really? So what actual evidence do you have that this is just a 'marketing ploy' by the UK fourth largest supermarket chain?

Anything at all?

 

[editor]

Well, here's an interesting piece that finds that "livestock grazing is preventing the return of rainforests to the UK and Ireland."

A few years back, the president of the National Farmers’ Union of England and Wales wrote a defence of the meat industry after a BBC documentary criticised its environmental impact. “British farmers do not clear rainforest to make way for beef and lamb production,” she wrote. “British meat does not come from the ashes of the Amazon.”

Many believe this but unfortunately it isn’t quite true. For one thing, livestock production in the UK and Ireland is still linked to rainforests abroad since chickens, pigs and cows are often fed imported soybeans. Brazil is the world’s largest soybean exporter, and much of its crop is grown on deforested land.

Many people might also be surprised to learn that Ireland and western regions of Great Britain are home to rainforests: temperate forests sometimes called Celtic or Atlantic rainforests. And, like their tropical counterparts, UK and Irish rainforests are threatened by grazing livestock, particularly deer and sheep.

Only a tiny and fragmented area of UK and Irish rainforest remains. As the Woodland Trust reports, it “has suffered long-term declines through clearances, chronic overgrazing, and conversion to other uses”.

Most of the UK and Ireland’s grass-fed cows and sheep are on land that might otherwise be temperate rainforest – arable crops tend to prefer drier conditions. However, even if there were no livestock grazing in the rainforest zone – and these areas were threatened by other crops instead – livestock would still pose an indirect threat due to their huge land footprint. You need around 35 times more land to get 100g of protein from lamb than you do from peas, beans and other pulses.

The UK and Ireland have some of the lowest forest cover in Europe at 13% and 11% respectively, and only one-tenth of this is natural rather than planted. Eating less meat and more plants means your diet has a smaller land footprint, which means more space for woods and rainforests to return.

Livestock grazing is preventing the return of rainforests to the UK and Ireland

The meat industry is competing with native forest for the same land.

theconversation.com

 

[friedaweed]

Oh really? So what actual evidence do you have that this is just a 'marketing ploy' by the UK fourth largest supermarket chain?

Anything at all?

I don't need any and I said probably. I don't spend all day looking for links to bomb this thread with I've got better things to do.

The marketisation of vegetable folks' diet is being fought over every day. The article you posted after that starts by celebrating of all people Burger King and MacDonalds offering plant based burgers. You do know that they're doing it for money don't you? Do you think eventually they'll stop serving megatons of beef globally?

Like I said, Lidl stopping selling their shit meat is great for everyone. Less shit meat more room for the butcher selling a quality produce. I notice you didn't pick up on that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

We shouldn't unquestioningly swallow Lidl's line on this. It's not as if they have been at the forefront of sustainable farming practices. They haven't been and aren't. They sell basa, for instance, which is catfish farmed in the Mekong River in very environmentally unfriendly ways. Their beef and chicken are generally British at least, but it's nearly all Red Tractor, which is the lowest rung on the welfare and standards ladder. Their pork isn't outdoor bred.

This will be a commercially based decision (and I'd wager it has something to do with rising meat prices that have narrowed their margins) and one that they will reverse quickly enough if it loses them money.

 

[editor]

I don't need any and I said probably. I don't spend all day looking for links to bomb this thread with I've got better things to do.

So you've just made it up because you don't like what the company are doing?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Naive in the extreme to think that this is anything other than a 100% commercial decision. When I see them getting rid of the basa, making their pork outdoor bred and stocking British lamb, then I might believe that they are serious about this. But given that their prices have gone up considerably even with the low-end stuff they currently stock, I'll be amazed if they do that.

 

[gentlegreen]

However it happens, it's all good... just as in the US where the pro-fossil fuel lobby is so strong, but industry knows to push on with low carbon solutions...
Difficult to choose between commercial motivation and Interweb "influencers" and the whims of fashion - but I can't ever seeing it go into reverse...

As one who painlessly found they much preferred plants in the early 80s, I find it pleasing ... and if things go to plan I will get to rediscover the whole "fight for acceptance" of plant-focussed diets in France - though things are moving there - perhaps they're further ahead in some ways than the UK in the 80s ... over there, they are heavily diverted by "bio" ("organic") - as well as massively into fake meat for cultural reasons...

I get grief around these parts for suggesting people take charge of their own health - of which food is a key component - after tobacco and alcohol are dealt with - a large chunk of health costs are down to preventable conditions ...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not necessarily all good imo. The most destructive farming systems, both animal and arable, are those that are not integrated - be they feedlot beef farms or monoculture almond farms. I would far rather hear Lidl committing to higher-welfare meat produced within sustainable integrated systems.

It's not as simple as meat=unsustainable, plant=sustainable.

 

[gentlegreen]

It's not necessarily all good imo. The most destructive farming systems, both animal and arable, are those that are not integrated - be they feedlot beef farms or monoculture almond farms. I would far rather hear Lidl committing to higher-welfare meat produced within sustainable integrated systems.

It's not as simple as meat=unsustainable, plant=sustainable.

so grass-fed meat - and just for those who can afford it ?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

so grass-fed meat - and just for those who can afford it ?

Cost is a problem. But we do need to make certain kinds of meat more expensive, I think. I don't say that with any glee - I feel for people trying to feed their families on a budget.

However, integrated, mixed farming is efficient. It produces good yields. It needn't be prohibitively expensive to expand it.

 

[gentlegreen]

I'm not sure where I fit in, I actually spend quite a lot on food - I eat more veggies than I actually need for the nutrients - I could probably eat fairly healthily on grains, beans and cheap frozen veggies ... certainly with the insurance of cheap multivits ...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Suspicion that mixed farming is efficient? I've linked to stuff on this before so I'm not going to do it again.

 

[gentlegreen]

Suspicion that mixed farming is efficient? I've linked to stuff on this before so I'm not going to do it again.

And I'm sure I've seen you paste it ...
I'm not sure I've ever bothered to plough through any of that stuff ...
Personally I see Haber nitrogen as a useful technology and a good reason to economise on fossil fuels generally ...
The Peruvians are keeping all their guano for themselves...

 

[friedaweed]

So you've just made it up because you don't like what the company are doing?

No I gave my personal opinion which is more than you do on this thread. I never said I didn't like what they're doing either but don't let that spoil your rant. You're quite fond of putting words in peoples mouths on this thread and attacking anyone who posts up a view of your cut and pastings.

I said it's no loss because their meat is the sort of stuff that you constantly bang on about like factory bred pork and chicken. Their meat is shit and that's not just my opinion I've heard it said by others.

It's all marketing though, it's what they do.

The thing I love about this thread is you get so rabid that you don't even notice when someone partly agrees with your POV.

I think supermarkets selling less meat is a good thing, especially for those people who have been priced out of making a living out of selling quality meat on our high street. Supermarkets have been pricing farmers, grocers and butchers out of business for years. That scale up and marketisation has contributed to a lot of the problems you post about. I don't want to eat mass produced meat I want to eat meat that is worth putting on a plate from a butcher who cares about the produce s/he sells. Butchers like the one I'll be visiting tomorrow.

You should take LBJ off ignore as well and read what he's posted or, you know, carry on doing the fingers in the ears routine and not contribute to an actual discussion.

 

[cesare]

I wouldn't say that Red Tractor is a particularly high standard for meat, fish and eggs, but the RSPCA Assured is a higher standard of welfare. Lidl stock RSPCA Assured products but I don't know which ones. I've started only buying RSPCA Assured (whether Lidl or elsewhere) and I make a conscious effort to look at the provenance and standards e.g. Ocado sent me some eggs and at first look they were labelled as barn eggs (barn conditions crowded etc) but they also have RSPCA Assured on the box so you know that the husbandry of the chickens meets RSCPA animal welfare standards.

 

[editor]

You should take LBJ off ignore as well and read what he's posted or, you know, carry on doing the fingers in the ears routine and not contribute to an actual discussion.

I'll continue to ignore who I choose, thanks, and the occasional peek reminds me that I've absolutely made the right decision on who's in that list.

 

[editor]

so grass-fed meat - and just for those who can afford it ?

Yeah fuck the poor. And fuck the animals, of course.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

lol

Who was it that was celebrating the effects of the cost of living crisis earlier in the thread?

Fantastic was the word used. Fantastic news.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I wouldn't say that Red Tractor is a particularly high standard for meat, fish and eggs, but the RSPCA Assured is a higher standard of welfare. Lidl stock RSPCA Assured products but I don't know which ones. I've started only buying RSPCA Assured (whether Lidl or elsewhere) and I make a conscious effort to look at the provenance and standards e.g. Ocado sent me some eggs and at first look they were labelled as barn eggs (barn conditions crowded etc) but they also have RSPCA Assured on the box so you know that the husbandry of the chickens meets RSCPA animal welfare standards.

Yeah, 'free range' doesn't guarantee that they don't still do things like beak trimming. Waitrose's blacktail hen eggs are good for welfare. Their saver free range sadly aren't. I only found this out relatively recently - it can be hard to know.

 

[editor]

lol

Who was it that was celebrating the effects of the cost of living crisis earlier in the thread?

Fantastic was the word used. Fantastic news.

And this kind of deceitful, dishonest post is exactly why you're staying on ignore.

I made it very VERY clear what I meant at the time:

The fantastic news is less meat being served in restaurants. Less cruelty, less suffering, less mistreatment, less death.

But you knew that unless you have some really quite serious problem with reading comprehension.

Don't bother responding because I certainly won't be. Bye!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm being dishonest? You just said 'Yeah fuck the poor. And fuck the animals, of course.' as a characterisation of what I think. Fuck's sake man, own your nasty digs at least.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Don't bother responding because I certainly won't be. Bye!

It was a drive-by dig, then. You insult me then fuck off?

 

[butcher]

Like I said, Lidl stopping selling their shit meat is great for everyone. Less shit meat more room for the butcher selling a quality produce. I notice you didn't pick up on that

Some of us did.

 

[Funky_monks]

so grass-fed meat - and just for those who can afford it ?

That's pretty much all sheepmeat in the UK and most beef spends most of its time consuming grass or grass products.

 

[Funky_monks]

I said it's no loss because their meat is the sort of stuff that you constantly bang on about like factory bred pork and chicken. Their meat is shit and that's not just my opinion I've heard it said by others.

It's all marketing though, it's what they do.

The thing I love about this thread is you get so rabid that you don't even notice when someone partly agrees with your POV

It's been happening all the way through, right at the beginning, I talked about how agriculture needed to change and went on to particularly discuss pig and poultry in relation to this.

I don't think anything I've written has actually been read.

Instead we have "Teh MeAt InDustReeez" as if its some conglomerate of a few mega corps and an utter failure to acknowledge that the massive meat processors are often the exact people developing those highly processed meat substitutes and therefore they are both "evil" and "our saviours" simultaneously.

There's also been a deliberate failure to even consider how crops and livestock are linked and how we are to feed a massive population sustainably and affordability, the latter being of primary concern to Agricultural scientists.