Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[editor]

regarding Monbiot's ideas? He basically thinks that everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so is wrong and needs to be undone

I had to stand back a fair bit to take in the full girth of that strawman.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

regarding Monbiot's ideas? He basically thinks that everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so is wrong and needs to be undone. And it needs to be undone very quickly in a space of decades using high-tech human-engineered solutions. That involves both arrogance in terms of what he thinks we can achieve and self-hatred in the sense that it sees everything that has brought humans to our place of global dominance as essentially evil.

Hand on your heart, do you think you've fairly characterised Monbiot's views by saying that he 'basically thinks that everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so is wrong and needs to be undone'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Hand on your heart, do you think you've fairly characterised Monbiot's views by saying that he 'basically thinks that everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so is wrong and needs to be undone'?

Yes. He specifically references the changes that we have made to the environment starting with the first farmers. I'm not sure you've quite grasped his ambition.

ETA:

And if you read his ideas for 'rewilding', what he means is 'removing humans'. He sets us up as separate from our environment and is essentially proposing the sealing off of chunks of the world from us and our malign influence. Ironically it amounts to an extreme form of human exceptionalism.

 

[butcher]

I had to stand back a fair bit to take in the full girth of that strawman.

Surely wickerman would have been better here

 

[DaphneM]

Monbiot is an idiot

 

[Funky_monks]

Yes. He specifically references the changes that we have made to the environment starting with the first farmers. I'm not sure you've quite grasped his ambition.

ETA:

And if you read his ideas for 'rewilding', what he means is 'removing humans'. He sets us up as separate from our environment and is essentially proposing the sealing off of chunks of the world from us and our malign influence. Ironically it amounts to an extreme form of human exceptionalism.

I started poking at his source material on here somewhere. He's also absolutely cherry picking parts of scientific journal articles out of context to support his viewpoint.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Yes. He specifically references the changes that we have made to the environment starting with the first farmers. I'm not sure you've quite grasped his ambition.

ETA:

And if you read his ideas for 'rewilding', what he means is 'removing humans'. He sets us up as separate from our environment and is essentially proposing the sealing off of chunks of the world from us and our malign influence. Ironically it amounts to an extreme form of human exceptionalism.

Monbiot's ambition is to get rid of 'livestock' farming, I share that ambition. I reject your patently false inference that livestock farming amounts to 'everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so'.


His views on rewilding are set out in this article:

Rewilding, in my view, should involve reintroducing missing animals and plants, taking down the fences, blocking the drainage ditches, culling a few particularly invasive exotic species but otherwise standing back. It’s about abandoning the biblical doctrine of dominion which has governed our relationship with the natural world.

I disagree with Monbiot's views on 'culling' but note that Monbiot's views on rewilding are the exact opposite of 'transhumanists' who typically want humanity to entirely conquer and transform nature, not leave it alone.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

He wants humans to transcend nature and live apart from it. We're both too awful to be in nature and so clever that we can set ourselves apart from it.

And if you doubt how far back the changes he wants reversed go, just have a look at almost any landscape in Britain and think how and when it was shaped like that.

 

[WouldBe]

Monbiot's ambition is to get rid of 'livestock' farming, I share that ambition. I reject your patently false inference that livestock farming amounts to 'everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so'.


His views on rewilding are set out in this article:



I disagree with Monbiot's views on 'culling' but note that Monbiot's views on rewilding are the exact opposite of 'transhumanists' who typically want humanity to entirely conquer and transform nature, not leave it alone.

"Re-introducing missing animals"
Does this include bears and wolves?

 

[editor]

"Re-introducing missing animals"
Does this include bears and wolves?

In case you missed it, all sorts of animals have already been reintroduced to the UK, with more on the way.

The first reintroduction of a nationally extinct species in the 20th century is thought to be the white tailed eagle, Britain’s largest bird of prey. Despite two failed attempts, in 1959 and 1968, sea eagles from Norway were successfully re-established on the west coast of Scotland in 1975 and 1985. They bred in 1983 for the first time in more than 70 years. In 2007, further sea eagles were introduced from Norway to Scotland’s east coast. Today, there are an estimated 152 pairs of sea eagle. In 2019, licences were given for the release of 60 sea eagles over five years on the South Coast of England, a welcome return after 240 years.

Other reintroductions over the past 30 years include the red kite and the bittern, the pool frog and the natterjack toad, the sand lizard and the smooth snake, wild boar, pine marten, chequered skipper butterfly, the enigmatic ladybird spider, and, of course, the Eurasian beaver.

Recovery through reintroductions

Bringing back native species is a key part of re-establishing natural processes and restoring ecosystems

www.rewildingbritain.org.uk

Bison, beavers and bog moss: eight new species to look out for in the UK in 2022

As rewilding projects restore habitats and ecosystems, we list the plants and animals staging a comeback across Britain

www.theguardian.com

 

[Funky_monks]

Ah yes. Ruminants bad, except when massive wild ruminants.

But also:

And if you doubt how far back the changes he wants reversed go, just have a look at almost any landscape in Britain and think how and when it was shaped like that.

So many of our rare species of international importance and rare habitats are a direct result of agricultural practices (some obsolete).
Rewilding gets rid of them all.

Monbiot is an absolute nutcase and utterly disingenuous with his misappropriation of science.

It's all part of this odd phenomenon where misanthropes claim to somehow be on the left of politics. They aren't, quite the opposite.

 

[Spymaster]

It's all part of this odd phenomenon where misanthropes claim to somehow be on the left of politics. They aren't, quite the opposite.

He'd fit in well with certain folk on here.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

On a lighter note, I tried the cathedral city plant-based cheddar and have to say I was pretty impressed. I got the sliced stuff and had it melted on toast with some dijon mustard. On the melt factor, more-or-less on a par with brands like violife, nothing groundbreaking. But where it stood out for me was in terms of taste. It had that nice tangy flavour that vegan cheddars have hitherto lacked.

 

[friedaweed]

On a lighter note, I tried the cathedral city plant-based cheddar and have to say I was pretty impressed. I got the sliced stuff and had it melted on toast with some dijon mustard. On the melt factor, more-or-less on a par with brands like violife, nothing groundbreaking. But where it stood out for me was in terms of taste. It had that nice tangy flavour that vegan cheddars have hitherto lacked.

You should try some real cheese, it's lush. Especially Cheshire cheese. It's endangered now and urgently needs saving.

 

[CNT36]

Monbiot's ambition is to get rid of 'livestock' farming, I share that ambition. I reject your patently false inference that livestock farming amounts to 'everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so'.

The good old days before humans started interfering with evolved systems you mean?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The good old days before humans started interfering with evolved systems you mean?

don't get what you're trying to say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ah yes. Ruminants bad, except when massive wild ruminants.

But also:

So many of our rare species of international importance and rare habitats are a direct result of agricultural practices (some obsolete).
Rewilding gets rid of them all.

Monbiot is an absolute nutcase and utterly disingenuous with his misappropriation of science.

It's all part of this odd phenomenon where misanthropes claim to somehow be on the left of politics. They aren't, quite the opposite.

It's a shame the way he's gone over the last few years. He's written good things in the past criticising neoliberalism and critiquing empire. But with his recent proposals, he abandons all of that. Massive corporations running things are the future, it seems.

 

[WouldBe]

In case you missed it, all sorts of animals have already been reintroduced to the UK, with more on the way.

Recovery through reintroductions

Bringing back native species is a key part of re-establishing natural processes and restoring ecosystems

www.rewildingbritain.org.uk

Bison, beavers and bog moss: eight new species to look out for in the UK in 2022

As rewilding projects restore habitats and ecosystems, we list the plants and animals staging a comeback across Britain

www.theguardian.com

Yes I had noticed that. Not sure that eagles or beavers are likely to kill people though.

 

[CNT36]

The good old days before humans started interfering with evolved systems you mean?

I meant to quote littlebabyjesus.

 

[editor]

Here's some fantastic news

Restaurants are removing meat dishes from their menus due to the impact of inflation and the rising popularity of Veganuary, researchers say.

Only 20% of all dishes served at restaurant chains last summer contained meat, according to the latest figures from Lumina Intelligence, a drop of four percentage points from last spring.

Only 33% of main courses at major restaurant chains include meat, and just 12% of starters, Prowse said, citing data from Lumina’s menu tracker, which surveys more than 150 restaurant chains, and pub and bar operators. About half of pub main courses include meat.

Restaurants dropping meat dishes as costs rise and Veganuary grows more popular

The soaring price of ingredients and rise of veganism have led to a ‘notable decline’ in dishes made with animal products

www.theguardian.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Food inflation running riot. FANTASTIC NEWS.

 

[Funky_monks]

Food inflation running riot. FANTASTIC NEWS.

See earlier re: misanthropism

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I meant to quote littlebabyjesus.

That's what Monbiot means, yes. It's not my argument, it's Monbiot's.

 

[editor]

Food inflation running riot. FANTASTIC NEWS.

The fantastic news is less meat being served in restaurants. Less cruelty, less suffering, less mistreatment, less death.

But you knew that unless you have some really quite serious problem with reading comprehension.

 

[editor]

That's what Monbiot means, yes. It's not my argument, it's Monbiot's.

Where does he say that "everything humans have done in the last 12,000 years or so is wrong and needs to be undone"?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Meanwhile, how has the cost of living crisis hit farmers? Are they all rolling in it due to higher prices? Are they fuck. Already struggling, they're the ones who have been hit the hardest of all.

And of course, this is one of the consequences of that:

Desperate farmers will either go broke – pack in farming altogether – or go backwards, farming more intensively and less sustainably to make ends meet.

British farmers are at the sharp end of the cost of living crisis – we must go further to support them

Fuck me, editor, that was a stupid thing to say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Less cruelty, less suffering, less mistreatment, less death.

You think driving livestock farmers to the wall is going to improve animal welfare?

Fuck's sake engage your brain.

 

[Spymaster]

Food inflation running riot. FANTASTIC NEWS.

Tbh, I'm highly sceptical that only 33% of main courses at major restaurant chains contain meat. Given that McDonalds, Nando's, KFC, and Burger King are in the top 10, I'm calling bollocks on that one.

 

[editor]

Meanwhile, how has the cost of living crisis hit farmers? Are they all rolling in it due to higher prices? Are they fuck. Already struggling, they're the ones who have been hit the hardest of all.

And of course, this is one of the consequences of that:



British farmers are at the sharp end of the cost of living crisis – we must go further to support them

Fuck me, editor, that was a stupid thing to say.

Even to one as constantly disingenuous and as dishonest as you I thought it was painfully obvious that the cause for my celebration - given my long standing opinion on the cruelty of the meat industry and my own politics - was the part of the sentence that referred to people choosing to eat less meat, spurred on by Veganuary. But feel free to keep on posting bullshit, like you always do. Perhaps you even believe it yourself.

 

[editor]

This sounds like a great idea

Governments should force prisons, schools, hospitals and other state-run institutions to serve more vegan burgers, sausages and fillets in order to trigger a dramatic shift in global agriculture, a team of researchers has proposed.

They identified public procurement of plant-based protein as a “super leverage point” that would spark cascading changes throughout the global food system.

Serving more plant-based foods in public institutions would help the alternative protein sector to scale up and bring down its costs, while also boosting the popularity of these products with the public, according to a report from sustainability consultancy Systemiq in partnership with the University of Exeter, UK.


Should vegan alternatives displace 20 per cent of meat sold globally, up to 8 million square kilometres of land used for livestock farming could be redeployed for climate-positive schemes, says Tim Lenton at the University of Exeter, who contributed to the report.

“You really get a disproportionate reduction in land use demand, which is obviously a big source of emissions,” he says. “Then you’re liberating land on which you could do reforestation, afforestation, rewilding.”

Serve vegan burgers in schools to trigger shift from meat, says report

Researchers urge governments to use public procurement of plant-based proteins to bring about cascading changes that help tackle climate change

www.newscientist.com

Report https://www.systemiq.earth/breakthrough-effect/