Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[editor]

"how dare you dictate to struggling families with no access to fresh fruit and veg" again again

Meanwhile: Lambeth Council launches pilot project offering fruit and vegetables on prescription to residents

 

[ddraig]

Yes it provided no information.

All you want is things to pick holes in to justify not doing anything different

 

[editor]

Indian lacto-vegetarians not so much, then. Dairy is a very important part of their diet, not to mention their culture.

I agree strongly with Funky Monks on this particular point - any one-size-fits-all pronouncement is going to sound an awful lot like neocolonialism. Cos that's what it is. And worse than that, it is a list of demands on those who are not the problem from those who are the problem. Why the fuck should poor Indians change their diets because the rich world has failed to address its addiction to fossil fuels?

Do you really not understand what "as many people as practically possible" means?

 

[ddraig]

Ah!!
A variation on the "how dare you" post, brilliant

 

[ddraig]

Do you really not understand what "as many people as practically possible" means?

Course they do just willfully ignoring and need something, any little thing to keep up the attack

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you really not understand what "as many people as practically possible" means?

In that case, I look forward to seeing your next stream of links on the subject making proper differentiation between the people you think need to change and the people you don't think need to change. Up to now, none of your links and streams of figures has made that distinction.

 

[editor]

In that case, I look forward to seeing your next stream of links on the subject making proper differentiation between the people you think need to change and the people you don't think need to change. Up to now, none of your links and streams of figures has made that distinction.

Is this extreme whataboutery really the best you can come up with?

But do you think the planet need to consume less meat and dairy YES/NO?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Is this extreme whataboutery really the best you can come up with?

But do you think the planet need to consume less meat and dairy YES/NO?

'The planet' needs to stop extracting fossil fuels from under the ground and burning them. That's the overwhelming issue here as a cursory glance of the US emissions tables will tell you.

When it comes to food, it doesn't make sense to talk about 'the planet' in the same way. It's far more complicated. We in the rich world very certainly need to change our ways to more sustainable methods. How much meat and dairy can be involved in that is a question to be considered in the whole not in isolation because farming systems are interlinked. Destructive factory farming methods and monocultures (which includes more than just meat and dairy) need to be ended, for sure.

As I've said to you many times on these threads, the big question 'how should we farm' is imo an interesting and complex one. Far more localism will be a part of that, and far more mixed farming, intercropping, etc. Certain aspects of meat farming could even need to be expanded in such a holistic approach, such as mussel or oyster farming.

But you crack on and post yet another rehashing of figures taken from Poore and Nemecek if that's what makes you happy.

 

[Spymaster]

As usual, Funky Monks and LBJ the only 2 posters worth reading for the last 2 pages.

All piss, wind, and snide stealth likes otherwise.

 

[Funky_monks]

The problem with this is that it doesn't really tell us anything.

It sounds shocking: some corporate titans emit more than some countries. But what does that actually mean in real terms?

Emit more methane only. Methane itself makes up a very small part of total GHG emissions.

 

[editor]

'The planet' needs to stop extracting fossil fuels from under the ground and burning them. That's the overwhelming issue here as a cursory glance of the US emissions tables will tell you.

When it comes to food, it doesn't make sense to talk about 'the planet' in the same way. It's far more complicated. We in the rich world very certainly need to change our ways to more sustainable methods. How much meat and dairy can be involved in that is a question to be considered in the whole not in isolation because farming systems are interlinked. Destructive factory farming methods and monocultures (which includes more than just meat and dairy) need to be ended, for sure.

As I've said to you many times on these threads, the big question 'how should we farm' is imo an interesting and complex one. Far more localism will be a part of that, and far more mixed farming, intercropping, etc. Certain aspects of meat farming could even need to be expanded in such a holistic approach, such as mussel or oyster farming.

But you crack on and post yet another rehashing of figures taken from Poore and Nemecek if that's what makes you happy.

It was a simple yes/no question, not an invite for you to indulge in yet more evasive whataboutery.

 

[Spymaster]

'The planet' needs to stop extracting fossil fuels from under the ground and burning them. That's the overwhelming issue here as a cursory glance of the US emissions tables will tell you.

When it comes to food, it doesn't make sense to talk about 'the planet' in the same way. It's far more complicated. We in the rich world very certainly need to change our ways to more sustainable methods. How much meat and dairy can be involved in that is a question to be considered in the whole not in isolation because farming systems are interlinked. Destructive factory farming methods and monocultures (which includes more than just meat and dairy) need to be ended, for sure.

As I've said to you many times on these threads, the big question 'how should we farm' is imo an interesting and complex one. Far more localism will be a part of that, and far more mixed farming, intercropping, etc. Certain aspects of meat farming could even need to be expanded in such a holistic approach, such as mussel or oyster farming.

But you crack on and post yet another rehashing of figures taken from Poore and Nemecek if that's what makes you happy.

Excellent answer. Only a fool would answer yes or no to a totally loaded and uneducated question.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

'The planet' needs to stop extracting fossil fuels from under the ground and burning them. That's the overwhelming issue here as a cursory glance of the US emissions tables will tell you.

When it comes to food, it doesn't make sense to talk about 'the planet' in the same way. It's far more complicated. We in the rich world very certainly need to change our ways to more sustainable methods. How much meat and dairy can be involved in that is a question to be considered in the whole not in isolation because farming systems are interlinked. Destructive factory farming methods and monocultures (which includes more than just meat and dairy) need to be ended, for sure.

As I've said to you many times on these threads, the big question 'how should we farm' is imo an interesting and complex one. Far more localism will be a part of that, and far more mixed farming, intercropping, etc. Certain aspects of meat farming could even need to be expanded in such a holistic approach, such as mussel or oyster farming.

But you crack on and post yet another rehashing of figures taken from Poore and Nemecek if that's what makes you happy.

What about the taxi driver in Khartoum trying to earn a meagre living to support their family. That you - a westerner - are demanding that a poor African should give up his livelihood when the vast majority of C02 emissions are from the industrialised West demonstrates a neo-colonial attitude. This is why I will continue supporting BP, Shell and Esso, because, unlike some, I'm opposed to capitalism and imperialism.

See what your cheep parlour tricks to avoid confronting the ethical and environmental impact of the meat industry sound like?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What about the taxi driver in Khartoum trying to earn a meagre living to support their family. That you - a westerner - are demanding that a poor African should give up his livelihood when the vast majority of C02 emissions are from the industrialised West demonstrates a neo-colonial attitude. This is why I will continue supporting BP, Shell and Esso, because, unlike some, I'm opposed to capitalism and imperialism.

See what your cheep parlour tricks to avoid confronting the ethical and environmental impact of the meat industry sound like?

That's an easy one. Said taxi driver will eventually have to switch to an alternative because the oil will no longer be extracted to make the petrol to power his taxi. He's a very long way down the list of those who need to change their ways, but he is on that list. However, lots of other things need to happen first. In particular, we will need to use fossil fuels as energy in order to build the infrastructure to replace them. I'm not proposing ending oil overnight - that can't be done and shouldn't be done.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That's an easy one. Said taxi driver will eventually have to switch to an alternative because the oil will no longer be extracted to make the petrol to power his taxi. He's a very long way down the list of those who need to change their ways, but he is on that list. However, lots of other things need to happen first. In particular, we will need to use fossil fuels as energy in order to build the infrastructure to replace them. I'm not proposing ending oil overnight - that can't be done and shouldn't be done.

And you think anyone here thinks all meat can be banned over night? You don't think your Maasai cow herder is low down the list of concerns for people like me who want the total eradication of the meat industry?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And you think anyone here thinks all meat can be banned over night? You don't think your Maasai cow herder is low down the list of concerns for people like me who want the total eradication of the meat industry?

They're on your list, though, no? As are Indian dairy farmers.

It is neocolonialism for them to even appear on your list in a way that is not true of the Khartoum taxi driver. The taxi driver is embedded in the world fossil fuel system - that's how his car gets made and his petrol gets to the petrol station. As said world system changes, so he will have to change with it. That's a very different case from insisting that people abandon a way of life they have followed for thousands of years.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

They're on your list, though, no? As are Indian dairy farmers.

Only in the sense that tobacco growers in Malawi are on my list. I'd like to see an end to the tobacco industry. Would you?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

They're on your list, though, no? As are Indian dairy farmers.

Better example, I'd like to see the end to oil refinery workers, as you have already admitted you would. There is no difference between us other than our views on the meat industry. You are no less 'colonialist' than I am.

 

[Funky_monks]

Excellent answer. Only a fool would answer yes or no to a totally loaded and uneducated question.

Asking a question that doesn't have a yes/no answer in that format is ridiculous.
Who should eat less meat?
What kind of meat?
What is the climate in that place?
What else grows there?

 

[Spymaster]

Asking a question that doesn't have a yes/no answer in that format is ridiculous.
Who should eat less meat?
What kind of meat?
What is the climate in that place?
What else grows there?

I think almost everyone realises that.

 

[editor]

Some people need to reeducate themselves with the rules of mutual ignore.

 

[Karl Masks]

Emit more methane only. Methane itself makes up a very small part of total GHG emissions.

it also leaves the atmosphere after a few years iirc

 

[Funky_monks]

After his "misogyny tour" on previous pages, I shall christen this one "The white Jeff's burden"

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The sad thing is that there's an interesting discussion to be had here. But arrogant fundamentalism of the Monbiot kind isn't it.

 

[CNT36]

This is my concern. The extraction and burning of fossil fuels is the major issue here. It is more important than everything else put together, but you wouldn't guess that sometimes. Fundamentally, this is the 'new' greenhouse gas contribution that has driven the changes in the planet's climate.

Using the US as the exemplar of how the rich world needs to change its ways, their own government's figures make it crystal clear what the problem is.

Where greenhouse gases come from - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Without wishing to sound like I'm in denial about methane, it is clear that there is an additional agenda among many who are currently jumping on it as a major problem. Overwhelmingly, these are people who want to see livestock farming ended for other reasons. I'd rather they were honest about that and stuck to the real reason they want it ended, which has nothing to do with greenhouse gases.

I think it's also been jumped on by some (not here) to divert attention from the fossil fuel issue. As I've mentioned before the first people I remember talking about it were deniers during the An Inconvenient Truth hype.

How accurate are figures for methane emissions these days? Is there still the issue of leakage not being taken into account?

 

[8ball]

The sad thing is that there's an interesting discussion to be had here.

Well, not literally here…

 

[DaphneM]

Obviously not here

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Only in the sense that tobacco growers in Malawi are on my list. I'd like to see an end to the tobacco industry. Would you?

The Indian dairy industry is the biggest in the world. India accounts for nearly a quarter of the world's milk production. Nearly all of that production is for domestic use.

Some numbers on that

It's been growing rapidly over the last few years. That growth will probably slow as population growth slows. But it's not going anywhere. And India has a big job on its collective hands feeding nearly 1.5 billion people. However, any attempt to end dairy farming around the world that doesn't touch a place that does a quarter of it isn't going to get very far.

It's not just India, either. Pakistan is the world's fourth-largest dairy producer, 80% of it produced on a small scale by rural producers. Bangladesh is now more or less self-sufficient in both rice and milk (both methane-producers). That's pretty important for nutrition in poor countries in the Global South. And we're now up to about a third of the world's milk production in those three countries. I could go on...

Yet again, your counterexamples aren't much use here. Malawian tobacco growers aren't growing tobacco for their fellow Malawians. They're locked into a global tobacco industry.

 

[WouldBe]

And you think anyone here thinks all meat can be banned over night? You don't think your Maasai cow herder is low down the list of concerns for people like me who want the total eradication of the meat industry?

Whereas it's relatively simple to stop fossil fuel use by just turning the tap off you'll never stop meat eating. Poaching has been illegal for ages yet still goes on, it would just increase. So animals would still get slaughtered for food.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Stirling university students take bold stance against animal abuse and environmental devastation. Obviously the gammon press are pretending to furious about it, one wonders what the 'anti-colonial' animal ag apologists on U75 will think?

Stirling University Students' Union votes to go 100% vegan

Stirling University Students' Union aims to phase out meat and dairy products from outlets by 2025.

www.bbc.co.uk