Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[Funky_monks]

O

IIRC hasn't Shiva become somewhat controversial on recent years? I remember some good work of hers on monocultures and the spread of GM food way back when. She was very critical of the green revolution and her claims about farmer suicides have come under a lot of scrutiny for a dodgy use of statistics.

If by "controversial" you mean being supportive of regen ag, I suppose.

She's incredibly well respected in her field though.

The Dublin declaration is up to 470 sigs, whereas you'll find one or two names within the scientific community who advocate the massive processed "Monbiot" solution.

But don't let the willingness of hundreds of scientists to put their names to something detract from the massive concensus apparently opposed wholesale to meat production.


Interesting to see vegan type posters on here now cosying up to the GMO lobby and Monsanto....

Also, really interesting to see (if it is the article I'm thinking of), a repub of the 2014 New York Times article criticising Shiva, which she responded to at the time.
Ever since she sued Monsanto in 1999 for its illegal Bt cotton trials in India, she's received death threats and a concerted PR assault on her on behalf of the biotech industry.

So much solidarity on a left wing board for a woman scientist of coulor being targeted by corporates.

 

[Funky_monks]

Shiva has lost the plot.

She's always been anti GMO and industrial food production.

How many Mirodi prizes have you won?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

She's always been anti GMO and industrial food production.

How many Mirodi prizes have you won?

She’s also deeply unhinged.

 

[Funky_monks]

She’s also deeply unhinged.

I mean, she's been subjected to a fuckton of abuse over her career and hasn't stopped challenging GMO and colonialist attitudes in globalist ag - you think she shouldn't be allowed the occasional outburst?

Her view is "the rape of the Earth and rape of women are intimately linked, both metaphorically in shaping worldviews and materially in shaping women's everyday lives."

What is your issue with that view? Put it into more than one sentence, please.

 

[CNT36]

If by "controversial" you mean being supportive of regen ag, I suppose.

She's incredibly well respected in her field though.

The Dublin declaration is up to 470 sigs, whereas you'll find one or two names within the scientific community who advocate the massive processed "Monbiot" solution.

But don't let the willingness of hundreds of scientists to put their names to something detract from the massive concensus apparently opposed wholesale to meat production.


Interesting to see vegan type posters on here now cosying up to the GMO lobby and Monsanto....

Also, really interesting to see (if it is the article I'm thinking of), a repub of the 2014 New York Times article criticising Shiva, which she responded to at the time.
Ever since she sued Monsanto in 1999 for its illegal Bt cotton trials in India, she's received death threats and a concerted PR assault on her on behalf of the biotech industry.

So much solidarity on a left wing board for a woman scientist of coulor being targeted by corporates.

By controversial I mainly meant the farmer suicides thing. I'd read that the number had been misrepresented and something ridiculous like all the suicides in a state had been attributed to the issues around GM and debt.
She should not be subject to death threats.

As for the rest of your post go fuck yourself. I will not be asking for your expert opinion again.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I mean, she's been subjected to a fuckton of abuse over her career and hasn't stopped challenging GMO and colonialist attitudes in globalist ag - you think she shouldn't be allowed the occasional outburst?

Her view is "the rape of the Earth and rape of women are intimately linked, both metaphorically in shaping worldviews and materially in shaping women's everyday lives."

What is your issue with that view? Put it into more than one sentence, please.

There are pros and cons to the us of GM crops and there's a discussion to be about how they are, can and should be used, but comparing farmers who plant them to rapists is offensive and absurd.

On the other hand, "livestock" farming involves the widespread interference with the sexual organs and sexual reproductivity of animals and practices like electro-ejaculation and forced artificial insemination. If any farming should be compared to sexual violence its the animal agriculture that you and Shiva are cheerleaders for.

 

[Funky_monks]

By controversial I mainly meant the farmer suicides thing. I'd read that the number had been misrepresented and something ridiculous like all the suicides in a state had been attributed to the issues around GM and debt.
She should not be subject to death threats.

As for the rest of your post go fuck yourself. I will not be asking for your expert opinion again.

It wasn't a response to your post, it was a response to the people saying that there's a massive consensus amongst the scientific community that all livestock farming is bad and then the constant attacks by people on here and elsewhere - not you. Sorry if you got the impression it was a dig.

 

[CNT36]

It wasn't a response to your post, it was a response to the people saying that there's a massive consensus amongst the scientific community that all livestock farming is bad and then the constant attacks by people on here and elsewhere - not you. Sorry if you got the impression it was a dig.

Ok thank you for the apology.

 

[Funky_monks]

There are pros and cons to the us of GM crops and there's a discussion to be about how they are, can and should be used, but comparing farmers who plant them to rapists is offensive and absurd.

On the other hand, "livestock" farming involves the widespread interference with the sexual organs and sexual reproductivity of animals and practices like electro-ejaculation and forced artificial insemination. If any farming should be compared to sexual violence its the animal agriculture that you and Shiva are cheerleaders for.

Well, thanks for clearing up what women should and shouldn't feel is analogous to rape.

I know plenty women who work in animal ag and AI (inc semen collection) who don't think its akin to rape. They, unlike you have seen animal breeding, both natural service and AI and come to that decision. FWIW, never seen electro stim used in either cattle or pigs for semen collection, not sure its even allowed in the UK.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Well, thanks for clearing up what women should and shouldn't feel is analogous to rape.

I know plenty women who work in animal ag and AI (inc semen collection) who don't think its akin to rape. They, unlike you have seen animal breeding, both natural service and AI and come to that decision. FWIW, never seen electro stim used in either cattle or pigs for semen collection, not sure its even allowed in the UK.

Great, so in your (and Shiva's) pseudo-ecofeminist universe planting a crop is rape but forcibly constraining a female mammal, anally fisting her and injecting semen into her vagina so you can forcibly impregnate her, kidnap and murder her kids and subject her to lifetime of reproductive slavery is fine because some women do it. Further proof that animal ag apologists are morally bankrupt.

 

[Funky_monks]

Great, so in your (and Shiva's) pseudo-ecofeminist universe planting a crop is rape but forcibly constraining a female mammal, anally fisting her and injecting semen into her vagina so you can forcibly impregnate her, kidnap and murder her kids and subject her to lifetime of reproductive slavery is fine because some women do it. Further proof that animal ag apologists are morally bankrupt.

No that just proves you don't understand cattle or what standing heat is.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

No that just proves you don't understand cattle or what standing heat is.

Totally irrelevant

 

[Funky_monks]

Totally irrelevant

Well, it is if you want to deliberately misunderstand how AI works to fuel your own political worldview, yes.

Ps, you don't have to restrain a cow to AI her, they stand there - hence "standing heat", lots of farmers don't. It is, however, best practice to put her in the crush.

I suspect you've not seen cattle or sheep mating naturally - they are much more likely to get injured doing that, not that I disapprove of it.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Well, it is if you want to deliberately misunderstand how AI works to fuel your own political worldview, yes.

Ps, you don't have to restrain a cow to AI her, they stand there - hence "standing heat", lots of farmers don't. It is, however, best practice to put her in the crush.

"The chance of AI success is greatly increased when the cow is relaxed; it should stand on a level surface with plenty of grip. The cow should also be appropriately restrained."

8-step guide to artificially inseminating a dairy cow - Farmers Weekly

DIY artificial insemination is a popular option on many dairy farms, but the results can be variable. Successful pregnancies depend on inseminating the

www.fwi.co.uk

You have not disproved anything I said.

 

[Funky_monks]

"The chance of AI success is greatly increased when the cow is relaxed; it should stand on a level surface with plenty of grip. The cow should also be appropriately restrained."

8-step guide to artificially inseminating a dairy cow - Farmers Weekly

DIY artificial insemination is a popular option on many dairy farms, but the results can be variable. Successful pregnancies depend on inseminating the

www.fwi.co.uk

You have not disproved anything I said.

I said its best practice to put her in the crush - you don't have to though, they will just stand there.

Point is, however that you appear to have decided you are going to mansplain how a lot of women who actually work with animals should perceive rape.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I said its best practice to put her in the crush - you don't have to though, they will just stand there.

Point is, however that you appear to have decided you are going to mansplain how a lot of women who actually work with animals should perceive rape.

Your shallow identity politics don't do shit for me squire. Its dumb shit dude. "I have found a woman who agrees with me - I win!" - get a life.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

This is the world we want - and will get! Get rid of the animal abusers and throat slitters entirely and replace them with precision fermentation. What could be better?

 

[Funky_monks]

This is the world we want - and will get! Get rid of the animal abusers and throat slitters entirely and replace them with precision fermentation. What could be better?

Yes, highly processed foods have never been linked to poor human health outcomes, have they?

And, of course, the massive food processing companies that own the factories are likely to be incredibly benevolent too, with their almost total control of the food supply chain.

 

[Funky_monks]

Your shallow identity politics don't do shit for me squire. Its dumb shit dude. "I have found a woman who agrees with me - I win!" - get a life.

A woman?
50% of my students are women.

But please, continue to tell women how to think.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Yes, highly processed foods have never been linked to poor human health outcomes, have they?

And, of course, the massive food processing companies that own the factories are likely to be incredibly benevolent too, with their almost total control of the food supply chain.

Bring it on!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I've read a few things by Monbiot about those ideas and it still looks very hand-wavy in places. The question 'how does it scale?' isn't some side issue. It's key.

I can't knock the ambition, though. He's not just going after the green revolution or the industrial revolution. He's going after farming as it's been done since the end of the last ice age.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

A woman?
50% of my students are women.

But please, continue to tell women how to think.

At an agricultural college? Yeah what a representative cross section of the public to think about farming ethics.

 

[Funky_monks]

At an agricultural college? Yeah what a representative cross section of the public to think about farming ethics.

University - also, just checked and the livestock specific modules much higher than that, they seem to be less interested in cropping for whatever reason.

Also, they are much better placed to have an opinion because they've actually done it.

 

[Funky_monks]

Bring it on!

Such a weird position for someone on the left.
Farmers may be annoying, but they are nebulous and almost all SMEs.

You'd be granting the likes of Cargill almost total control of all food.

That ought to terrify you.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Also, they are much better placed to have an opinion because they've actually done it.

Do you realise how fucking stupid that is? I'll give you a hint - try applying that 'logic' to any other ethically-contested practice and see how idiotic it is.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This is a good article about the unanswered questions about precision fermentation. There is lots to unpack.

What Consumers Should Ask About Precision Fermentation

Here are a few of the questions.

What is in the cell culture medium and what is it derived from? The microorganisms need to eat if they are to grow and produce sellable commodities, like any type of livestock. Is the nutrient bath derived from corn or soy, typically genetically modified to withstand high dosages of herbicides? Are there supply chains in place to provide such nutrient media at scale? What is the caloric conversion and nutrient uptake efficiency of the microbes compared to animal livestock. How much farmland acreage would be impacted? What will be the input costs besides feedstock and how will that impact consumer prices?

How much waste material is produced by such microorganisms relative to sellable product? This includes metabolic wastes, as well as the leftover steep once the spent microbes and consumable material have been filtered out. How will such wastes be disposed of and who is ultimately responsible for it?

How does the energy and resource usage of such products compare to competing animal-based items? Much of the marketing and fundraising for such products revolves around being significantly less harmful to the climate than CAFOs. Precision fermentation requires large investments in concrete, steel, plastic and fossil-fuel dependent electric utilities to maintain the particular environmental settings necessary for the microorganisms to thrive. If the sector wishes to have a significant impact on consumption, they will require the buildout of thousands of fermentation tanks and dozens, if not hundreds of facilities. How will this resource use impact communities already dealing with the environmental racism and colonialism inherent in mining, tech manufacturing and waste disposal?

What kind of testing has been done to understand the potential environmental impact for if and/or when the microbes escape the confines of a fermentation plant, particularly as the technology scales? Can they survive and interact in the variable conditions and ecosystems that exist in the wild? Since some of these organisms are derived from strains that can live and thrive well outdoors, what are the environmental risks? CAFOs have long been linked to the spread of pathogens and pandemics, so will precision fermentation reduce these risks or create new ones?

It's quite a dystopian vision in many ways. Bland food of questionable nutritional value whose production is controlled by a small group of capitalists, and whose environmental costs are yet to be explained. Monbiot's being disingenuous to present this as a ready-made solution and he appears to be talking exclusively to the rich global North.

 

[Funky_monks]

This is a good article about the unanswered questions about precision fermentation. There is lots to unpack.

What Consumers Should Ask About Precision Fermentation

Here are a few of the questions.



It's quite a dystopian vision in many ways. Bland food of questionable nutritional value whose production is controlled by a small group of capitalists, and whose environmental costs are yet to be explained. Monbiot's being disingenuous to present this as a ready-made solution and he appears to be talking exclusively to the rich global North.

It's fucking terrifying for so many reasons.

I'd much rather see food production in more hands, not fewer.

 

[Funky_monks]

Do you realise how fucking stupid that is? I'll give you a hint - try applying that 'logic' to any other ethically-contested practice and see how idiotic it is.

That people with experience have better undstanding of a practice that most people have never even seen?

Ok then

 

[Jeff Robinson]

That people with experience have better undstanding of a practice that most people have never even seen?

Ok then

You've made many mistakes here. First, not experiencing something first hand doesn't mean that not witnessed it - I have witnessed footage of AI for example. And even if somebody hasn't witnessed a practice, they can still read about it and form assessments about it. I've never witnessed a murder - and I hope you haven't either - but we can still make moral assessments about murder.

But your idiocy runs deeper. You seem unable to grasp the incredibly simple point that people who participate in a practice might not always be in the best position to ethically evaluate it. Clear example - do you think a serial murderer is in a better position to understand murder than you because they've committed a bunch of murders and you haven't?

 

[Funky_monks]

You've made many mistakes here. First, not experiencing something first hand doesn't mean that not witnessed it - I have witnessed footage of AI for example. And even if somebody hasn't witnessed a practice, they can still read about it and form assessments about it. I've never witnessed a murder - and I hope you haven't either - but we can still make moral assessments about murder.

But your idiocy runs deeper. You seem unable to grasp the incredibly simple point that people who participate in a practice might not always be in the best position to ethically evaluate it. Clear example - do you think a serial murderer is in a better position to understand murder than you because they've committed a bunch of murders and you haven't?

So you think that women involved with AI can't possibly evaluate it because they suddenly take leave of their senses and all rationality when doing it?
Funny, they often seem to be better at assisting births precisely because they have empathy.

Also, we are not talking about a practice that is morally contested by more than a couple of percent of the population.

Here's a video of AI that I use as an example of poor practice, mostly for hygiene reasons, but it does illustrate standing heat rather well (and no, one should not kiss the cow after one AIs it)