Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?

[8ball]

(((robots)))

 

[Cid]

Agriculture is notorious for appalling labour practices, not like the meat side of it is in any way unique. I mean come on, when the generic term for the people who get seasonal workers into positions is 'gangmasters' it's a bit of a warning sign.

Shocking extent of modern slavery in agriculture revealed - Farmers Weekly

The shocking extent of labour exploitation and modern-day slavery in agriculture has been laid bare in a new report by the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse

www.fwi.co.uk

 

[editor]

Or use robots

So you'd be OK with killer robots slaughtering animals, yes?

 

[WouldBe]

But if you 'take an interest' in the mental welfare of slaughterhouse workers, what are you actually doing to improve their lot?

Seeing how supermarkets are trying to push the price of everything down, including meat, I can't see that slaughterhouse people are going to be paid that highly. So it's a possibility that financial worries could be causing the depression.

 

[NoXion]

So you'd be OK with killer robots slaughtering animals, yes?

Beats them slaughtering humans.

 

[editor]

Seeing how supermarkets are trying to push the price of everything down, including meat, I can't see that slaughterhouse people are going to be paid that highly. So it's a possibility that financial worries could be causing the depression.

You don't think the brutality of slaughtering sentient beings all day might not just play a teensy weensy part in their mental health?

The disturbing link between slaughterhouse workers and PTSD

As animal rights activists it’s easy to demonise slaughterhouse workers, the cogs in the machinery of death. We ask ourselves what drives a person to choose to kill sentient beings for hours each day, a constant barrage of the most horrendous sights, sounds and smells. We round up the research and a

www.surgeactivism.org

The harrowing psychological toll of slaughterhouse work

‘You feel isolated from society, not a part of it. Alone.'

metro.co.uk

We Need To Talk About The Mental Health of Abattoir Workers

The Mental Health of Abattoir Workers, problems faced by abattoir workers, why killing animals for a living can affect your mental health,

eluxemagazine.com

 

[WouldBe]

You don't think the brutality of slaughtering sentient beings all day might not just play a teensy weensy part in their mental health?

Do you think they are forced to work there?
Do you think they wouldn't have realised what it involved when they applied for the job?

 

[butcher]

No probs. Maybe you could find me some more things you haven't read to help convince me you're right?

I'm doing a Masters in the subject, to try to really understand it. Understanding things is the first step to resolving them. I'm pretty sure that it stands more chance of actually helping than would reducing the small amount of meat I eat still further.

Come on, you know academic qualifications in the field being discussed cut no ice here.

You could even lecture on a subject and if it doesn't fit it will be dismissed as whataboutery or some other repeated neologism

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You literally can't answer a straightforward question, can you? It's all showboating and fluster.

But if you 'take an interest' in the mental welfare of slaughterhouse workers, what are you actually doing to improve their lot?

What are you actually doing to improve the lot of tantalum miners in Congo? Or do you just not care, you monster?

 

[butcher]

Shocking extent of modern slavery in agriculture revealed - Farmers Weekly

 

[Artaxerxes]

Shocking extent of modern slavery in agriculture revealed - Farmers Weekly

"We're all wondering who did this" says gunman

 

[Jeff Robinson]

The responses to the suffering experienced by slaughterhouse workers were fairly predictable: what about child labourers mining coltan in the DRC? What about slavery and hyper-exploitation in plant agriculture? Well, here's my response: child exploitation and slavery should be ended (in slaughterhouses and elsewhere)! I also think we should strive for a world where slaughterhouses don't exist either.

But the people bringing up child labour and slavery on this thread don't want to see an end to slaughterhouses. They are pro-slaughterhouse. I presume the thinking is something like this: just as there is nothing inherently harmful with people picking vegetables or mining minerals so too is there nothing inherently wrong with slaughterhouse work. What's wrong in all these instances is the exploitation of the workers, not the work activity itself. All these activities could, under different socioeconomic conditions, be good work.

The problem with this is that it fails to consider what's distinctive about slaughterhouse work: it involves the penning, restraining and killing of sentient beings against their will. This is an activity that, to put in conservatively, is prone to be psychologically damaging. Consider this study cited in the systematic literature review I posted above:

The qualitative work conducted by Victor and Barnard (2016) found that South African SHWs reported suffering from the following psychological issues at the beginning of their employment as a consequence of their first kill: trauma, intense shock, paranoia, fear, anxiety, guilt, and shame.

Notice that the psychological trauma is documented after the first kill. People who own allotments don't experience anxiety, guilt and shame after they rip the first carrot out of the ground. One thing the slaughterhouse apologists seem unwilling or unable to grasp is that slaughterhouse work is inherently violent and participation in violence is psychologically damaging. Whilst working conditions for SHWs can be improved, violence can't be excised for the slaughterhouse, it is its raison d'etre. This is why slaughterhouse work can't be glibly assimilated as just another example of 'exploitation under capitalism'.

 

[butcher]

a butcher, shill and fraud, who'd have guessed!

Still waiting to hear who you are specifically defaming here

 

[Funky_monks]

If it's posting up nonsense studies time, why not go with this one:

Is there any truth to vegans being happier than meat-eaters?

A new study claims that chomping on plant-based foods can make us happier than eating meat. Here's why.

www.stylist.co.uk

So, a peer reviewed metanalysis of a body of research is "nonsense", but the Guardian is a beacon of truth. Gotcha.

 

[Funky_monks]

If I was honest, I think most meta analysis is so inconclusive as to be bollocks and should not be used as evidence to promote personal views, I also think these communal meat/vegan bashing threads usually end up in pointless squabbling.

BTW your ref above mainly says that the problem was most people did not read the caveats which I explicitly pointed out in my OP


"Dr. Edward Archer, a co-author of the study and chief science officer for the data analytics firm Evoving FX, told Insider that the research does not show that meat can improve mental health, or that avoiding it can cause mental health issues.

"We were very careful to say no causal inference should be made. We offered lots of information for both sides of the debate," he said in an interview. "We cannot say that meat-free diets cause mental illness. What we did find is that the research doesn't support the idea that eliminating meat can improve mental health." "

That's how epidemiological studies work - they identify correlations worthy of clinical trials. Correlation does not equal causation.

Although, it does slightly amuse me the amount of epidemiological studies the anti meat lot cite to "prove" meat is bad for you.
Not to mention their willingness to completely ignore any allegations of bias against Joseph Poore, who not only receives finding from vegan groups, but also makes speeches/sits on discussion panels on behalf of Viva!


Seventh day adventists, eh?

 

[Funky_monks]

There is a moral and ethical case for moving beyond meat. Humans are fully capable of surviving without it.

However it remains true that biologically speaking in terms of both our teeth and digestive systems we have evolved as omnivores, both meat and vegetable eaters.

Throughout our existence on this planet we have killed animals to eat them. What the advance of civilisation has done is to divorce most of us from that process, so we experience meat as a pre-packaged commodity on supermarket shelves. Throughout most of prehistory meat and other animal products, eg furs, were essential for our survival but this is no longer true today.
But many of us are of an age where we were raised to eat meat and have always done so. It is not easy to change at my age, and any temptation by anyone to indulge in any self-righteous morally superior lecture in response to this will do nothing but make me did my heels in.

I am not persuaded that eating meat as all our ancestors have done makes me a morally bad person, and anyone who tries to make me feel bad will not win me round but turn me against them. But at the moment I am open to persuasion if it takes an understanding tone.

The change to a wholly vegetarian society is not going to happen overnight but gradually, and the people need to be carried along with it and be on board at every stage.

Hominins (including sapiens) spent two million years evolving as hypercarnivores. The inclusion of greater amounts of plant material came with the advent of agriculture some 10,000 years ago in the middle east.

Humans were apex predators for two million years, study finds: What did our ancestors eat during the stone age? Mostly meat

I am aware that this is a lay press article about the journal published article, which I feel makes the findings more accessible. I can link to the actual study if pedants so wish.

 

[Funky_monks]

Come on, you know academic qualifications in the field being discussed cut no ice here.

You could even lecture on a subject and if it doesn't fit it will be dismissed as whataboutery or some other repeated neologism

You're wrong, I believe the term is "industry shill". I'd like my massive house, payrise and executive automobile now please, "big meat".

 

[butcher]

You're wrong, I believe the term is "industry shill". I'd like my massive house, payrise and executive automobile now please, "big meat".

How do you know my nickname and no you cannot have a payrise

 

[not-bono-ever]

anyone here been to a slaughterhouse ? fucking hell. its horrifying

 

[Funky_monks]

anyone here been to a slaughterhouse ? fucking hell. its horrifying

Yes, several.

Most recently was at Foyle.
Pretty old Temple Grandin style handling system and clever use of sliding doors ensure that cattle have no idea whats going on and are calm.

 

[butcher]

anyone here been to a slaughterhouse ? fucking hell. its horrifying

Yes, two different one. A small family run one and a larger family run one. My job is selling meat and I think that it is responsible to be aware of all steps between farm and block.

The first run by a nearby Butchers, the second by a farming and abattoir based business. I have used both for private kills of cattle from a local council tenant farmer, the larger on also as a wholesaler.

Both are also involved in animal husbandry as well as meat production, both treat animals with respect both before and after slaughter, that's why I use them.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Presumably all of these slaughterhouses have published footage on their websites of the animals beings killed, to show the public how awesome and humane it is?

 

[Funky_monks]

Presumably all of these slaughterhouses have published footage on their websites of the animals beings killed, to show the public how awesome and humane it is?

No, you can actually go and visit.
That one does tours for farmer groups and various students ( Biology etc).
I don't know if they still do, but Laverstoke Park had a public viewing gallery.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

No

How interesting

 

[Funky_monks]

How interesting

Why, If you can literally go and watch?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Why, If you can literally go and watch?

So they have material on their websites/social media accounts inviting the public into their slaughterhouses?

 

[Funky_monks]

So they have material on their websites/social media accounts inviting the public into their slaughterhouses?

You'll have to look it up - Laverstoke Park literally had a public viewing gallery and those trips were advertised.
Foyle, probably not but they don't hide it either, taking groups round is often mentioned on their social media.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

You'll have to look it up - Laverstoke Park literally had a public viewing gallery and those trips were advertised.
Foyle, probably not but they don't hide it either, taking groups round is often mentioned on their social media.

So that’s a ‘no’ again. Again, very interesting.

 

[Funky_monks]

So that’s a ‘no’ again. Again, very interesting.

Why is it interesting?
Can I see video footage of your workplace online?

 

[platinumsage]

So that’s a ‘no’ again. Again, very interesting.

Why? I don't expect to see videos of embalming on a funeral director's website, nor do I expect to see videos of lettuce harvesting on a salad producer's website.