I think the spittle flecked fury needs to be toned down...
Bye bye MEAT! How will the post-meat future look?
- Thread starter MrCurry
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hiraethified
This what the world is up against:
madrebrava.org
Madre Brava — People don’t see industrial meat as a key cause of global warming – poll
Despite industrial meat polluting more than all cars together, a new global opinion poll shows that Americans, Brazilians, British and French citizens and Germans don’t know anything about the climate impact of meat production. But when they do learn more about it, people get concerned!
madrebrava.org
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Language like 'most easily explained' and 'doesn't necessarily require' kinda concedes there's quite a bit of guesswork going on, which there always is when it comes to the problem of other minds. There can never be a deductive proof that another entity is conscious, only different degrees of inductive or abductive evidence assigned varying degrees of credence.
Whilst it might now be 'quite clear that many animals have minds', it wasn't to many of the world's most distinguished scientists until fairly recently. For centuries, many scientists have held that all, most or many animals are not conscious because they lack souls, language, metacognition, neo-cortexes, amygdalae or hippocampi. In the heyday of behaviourism it was considered verboten to attribute any animal behaviour to any internal thought processes that animals might have. But incremental and Kuhnian shifts in the sciences have led to broad rejections of these anthropocentric arguments against animal consciousness.
In light of this history and given that the science of consciousness is still in its infancy we ought to adopt an epistemic humility and an ethical cautiousness concerning the sentience of other creatures. Evidence of nociception, endogenous opioid production and cost-benefit trade offs in bivalves, though far from conclusive, is at least grounds for caution imo.
Jennaonthebeach
What would Picard do?
still just speculation. sorry.They do have an uncentralized nervous system that allows them to react to their environment, but most scientists conclude that their brain/nervous system isn’t advanced enough to perceive pain in the traditional sense that other animals can.
Do Mussels Have Brains? Can Vegans Eat Mussels?
Do mussels have brains? I will answer this question in this article and see if they are considered a vegan.vegancalm.com
I think LBJ's idea is a good one. I support the farming of shellfish like mussels, clams & oysters!
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
You're quite right that throughout much of the 20th century, ethology was in the grips of Skinnerism to the extent that it was career-death for a researcher to even mention 'minds'.
That we are thankfully moving beyond that is great, but that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all wrt assigning conscious experience. Nocioception of itself is not sufficient, while cost-benefit trade offs of various kinds are undertaken by all living things, including bacteria. Endogenous opioid production is interesting, but many very simple animals have different moods. Nematode worms, for instance, with their 302 neurons, experience moods.
As for using a rule of parsimony wrt explanations, I think that is justified in the case of assigning consciousness precisely because, from what we know about it, being conscious takes organisation and considerable effort and energy, as shown by the fact that all the animals we do think are conscious have to switch off that consciousness at regular intervals in order to stay alive. There are sea creatures that have more complex nervous systems when they are in a mobile larval stage then eat their own brains when they become adults and settle down to a sessile lifestyle. They don't need them any more - no organism keeps something that costs energy if they don't need it, and if they don't need it at any time in their lives, they quickly evolve never to develop it in the first place.
That we are thankfully moving beyond that is great, but that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all wrt assigning conscious experience. Nocioception of itself is not sufficient, while cost-benefit trade offs of various kinds are undertaken by all living things, including bacteria. Endogenous opioid production is interesting, but many very simple animals have different moods. Nematode worms, for instance, with their 302 neurons, experience moods.
As for using a rule of parsimony wrt explanations, I think that is justified in the case of assigning consciousness precisely because, from what we know about it, being conscious takes organisation and considerable effort and energy, as shown by the fact that all the animals we do think are conscious have to switch off that consciousness at regular intervals in order to stay alive. There are sea creatures that have more complex nervous systems when they are in a mobile larval stage then eat their own brains when they become adults and settle down to a sessile lifestyle. They don't need them any more - no organism keeps something that costs energy if they don't need it, and if they don't need it at any time in their lives, they quickly evolve never to develop it in the first place.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not entirely sure what you would count as non-speculation in that case.
There is a theory put forward by some that mind is somehow a fundamental property of matter - so-called panpsychism. I think it's a bad theory. I don't think it's coherent because for mind to exist, perceptions need to be created. Panpsychism doesn't explain how it is that our minds are switched off by general anaesthetic. To be meaningful, I think you need to define mind a bit more carefully and fully than that, certainly if you want to attribute experience and a capacity for suffering to it. And you also need to look at why and how conscious perception/experience has evolved, because to be meaningful it has to be looked at as an evolved capacity of some living organisms. That's what we mean when we talk about our conscious awareness - the one we have direct access to (or not, in the case of being unconscious).
I wonder if we get misled into focusing too much on consciousness per se, rather than on awareness of the passing of time — being able to find meaning in the past and future. A dog is clearly conscious but I would suggest that it can’t represent the future, only exist in the ever changing now
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
In the context of Bentham's question 'can it suffer?', existence in an ever-changing now would be sufficient. The point about consciousness is that it is itself a representation - both of the world and of the entity experiencing the world: me in the world. For suffering to exist, that representation needs to exist. And it has a physical correlate. We may not yet fully understand what that correlate is, but we also don't have no idea at all what kind of thing it is.
Oh, no question that an ever-present now is enough for suffering. I thought we’d moved the discussion on.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Dogs can react to anticipatory threats based on past experience though?
That’s absolutely true, but I would argue for a behavioural rather than cognitive underpinning. I could be wrong.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I can give you a simple example of forward planning from my old cat. He was sat staring through the window at the back garden from the first floor when another cat jumped up on the garden fence (he loathed all other cats and did not tolerate them in his garden). Upon seeing his enemy, he smartly about-turned and ran out of the room, downstairs, into the kitchen, through the cat flap and into the garden to see off the rival. He had a goal - see off that cat. And he made a plan - turn away from the other cat so that it and the garden are no longer in view and dash outside taking the appropriate route.
That might sound simple, but it's something of a cognitive feat.
Another example comes from Konrad Lorentz's pet greylag goose. It used to come inside the house and would usually dash straight upstairs. There was a wonky floorboard half-way up the staircase, which it had learned to dodge. It kept up this habit even once the floorboard had been fixed. One day, feeling particularly excited, the goose ran inside and dashed to the top of the stairs before stopping dead in its tracks. It stood there for a moment, then went back down the stairs to carefully climb them once more. In its excitement, it had forgotten to take the detour and, being a highly superstitious animal without a firm grasp of cause and effect, it was clearly horrified by the thought of having taken the wrong route. It rectified the situation by climbing the stairs a second time taking the 'correct' route.
Other animals such as dogs, cats and geese are certainly capable of imagining an action and its outcome before carrying that action out. That involves some concept of the future.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Snails come back in your garden when you throw them into next door's hostas. I learnt that the hard way
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WouldBe
Dislicksick
They don't if you deposit them over 100m away apparently.Snails come back in your garden when you throw them into next doors. I learnt that the hard way
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Snails come back in your garden when you throw them into next doors. I learnt that the hard way
You need a catapult.
JimW
支那暗杀团
Though your children will be in for a shock one day after they inherit.They don't if you deposit them over 100m away apparently.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
You know me, I'm not a violent man.
I've got an arrangement with the poor Deliveroo lad who cycles 6 miles to serve the Tarquins in the village. He's dropping them off at the local Tory councilors garden for me in exchange for exclusive use of our outside toilet when he's doing his rounds.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
That'll be their problem not mine.
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
They don't if you deposit them over 100m away apparently.
WouldBe
Dislicksick
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
To be completely honest. I don't have a big issue here with snails and slugs because we're blessed with some spiky friends that track them down at night. But my old gaff was a walled terrace garden and they were in the hundreds there.How large are your snails?
I'm quite enamoured by gastropoda. They're amazing animals and as long as they fuck off out of the greenhouse they're free to roam here until Harry gets them. .
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Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
"... the IPCC report’s authors initially recommended a shift to plant-based diets, stating that “plant-based diets can reduce GHG emissions by up to 50% compared to the average emission-intensive Western diet,” according to a draft leaked by Scientist Rebellion.
"In the published report, the line was changed to “balanced, sustainable healthy diets acknowledging nutritional needs,” skirting a direct mention of beef and dairy, what a sustainable diet actually looks like, or any reference to the Western and largely wealthy countries that should most urgently start eating less meat."
qz.com
"In the published report, the line was changed to “balanced, sustainable healthy diets acknowledging nutritional needs,” skirting a direct mention of beef and dairy, what a sustainable diet actually looks like, or any reference to the Western and largely wealthy countries that should most urgently start eating less meat."
The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet
A leaked draft revealed how the meat industry is obstructing efforts to curb climate change
qz.com
editor
hiraethified
They're fucking worse than the tobacco industry in the 60s/70s."... the IPCC report’s authors initially recommended a shift to plant-based diets, stating that “plant-based diets can reduce GHG emissions by up to 50% compared to the average emission-intensive Western diet,” according to a draft leaked by Scientist Rebellion.
"In the published report, the line was changed to “balanced, sustainable healthy diets acknowledging nutritional needs,” skirting a direct mention of beef and dairy, what a sustainable diet actually looks like, or any reference to the Western and largely wealthy countries that should most urgently start eating less meat."
The meat industry blocked the IPCC’s attempt to recommend a plant-based diet
A leaked draft revealed how the meat industry is obstructing efforts to curb climate change
bcuster
Well-Known Member
at least tobacco growing wasn’t a cause of global warming…
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
An aspect that gets lost in this discussion is the extent of what is described here as the Peasant Food Web. It's the source of most of the world's food, and its network of small producers needs supporting.
https://www.etcgroup.org/sites/www.etcgroup.org/files/files/etc-whowillfeedus-english-webshare.pdf
Those of us who live in the rich north are stuck in the industrial food chain whether we like it or not. But we are not the world. Good to show some humility towards the accumulated wisdom of tens of thousands of years (going back before farming). Not all the solutions to the mess we're in come from high-tech and big corporations. They're mostly the problem.
https://www.etcgroup.org/sites/www.etcgroup.org/files/files/etc-whowillfeedus-english-webshare.pdf
Those of us who live in the rich north are stuck in the industrial food chain whether we like it or not. But we are not the world. Good to show some humility towards the accumulated wisdom of tens of thousands of years (going back before farming). Not all the solutions to the mess we're in come from high-tech and big corporations. They're mostly the problem.
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
Peasants, especially those living near the equator, soon will struggle to grow maize and wheat if Western patterns of extraction and consumption, including consumption of meat, continue at present rates.
editor
hiraethified
So one the one hand the meat industry is trying to cover up the impact they have on the climate and try to encourage people to keep on eating meat like everything is just fine and dandy.
And on the other hand, there's this:
archive.ph
And on the other hand, there's this:
A $24 Billion Wave of Climate Losses Faces Meat and Dairy Firms - Blo…
archived 28 Mar 2023 14:50:01 UTC
friedaweed
Me and me girl named Jane
Are any of the worlds petrochemical companies encouraging motorists to reduce the amount of fuel they're using? Of course they're not.
I'm not sure why anyone would think that the meat industry would encourage anyone to stop eating their main product.
The price of the product will go up and people will just revert to buying the cheapest available meat like factory pork and chicken probably.
I'm not sure why anyone would think that the meat industry would encourage anyone to stop eating their main product.
The price of the product will go up and people will just revert to buying the cheapest available meat like factory pork and chicken probably.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Yes, this is why cheering figures showing a decline in meat buying due to an economic crisis is wrong-headed. Bit of joined-up thinking is needed here.
And it's not just meat. Poor practices and destructive monocultures for plants are also hugely damaging to the environment. Poor farming practices are bad full stop.
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
There seems to be some hysteria in the blogosphere about the fact that the IPCCs recent climate emergency announcements focussed (correctly) on fossil fuel use and not meat.
For balance, here is a referenced blog post (edited by another of the "wrong scientists" Prof Frederik Leroy):
Livestock and greenhouse gas emissions
If nothing else, it'll keep the conspiracy theorists on here going.
If I can be arsed (or I think anyone will read it), I'll post some work I've done on Poore and Nemecek 2018, although its pretty outdated at this point.
For balance, here is a referenced blog post (edited by another of the "wrong scientists" Prof Frederik Leroy):
Livestock and greenhouse gas emissions
If nothing else, it'll keep the conspiracy theorists on here going.
If I can be arsed (or I think anyone will read it), I'll post some work I've done on Poore and Nemecek 2018, although its pretty outdated at this point.
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