Britain First

[Thimble Queen]

Well it was the NUS person quoted in the news story, but it just seems an odd example given I doubt there's a shortage.

Just a passing observation.

I'm a bit tired and got Manchester/Nottingham mixed up and misread you. Sorry I probably seemed a bit short.

 

[chilango]

I was quoting the article but yes now having looked at that particular incident it doesn't seem to be uni/student related. I cant speak for the SU bod though as to why he included it.

As you acknowledge there are are enough other incidents anyway...if someone were really interested in knowing how prevalent this stuff is I imagine they'd research it instead of asking me in such a dismissive way as was done above.

I'm a bit tired and got Manchester/Nottingham mixed up and misread you. Sorry I probably seemed a bit short.

As I said, it was just a passing observation after reading the linked article.

I used to walk past that pub every day as a kid on my way home from school so I guess it stick out a bit.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

That's a wholly illogical conclusion, tbh. Black people as a whole are more susceptible to racist attacks in the UK than white people. That doesn't mean that individual black people can't be guilty of racist attacks.

Would you agree that someone who attacks a black person because they are black should be sentenced more robustly than someone who attacks someone for many other reasons?

So if we both get assaulted on a night out, receive the same injuries etc with the only difference being that some racial epithets are thrown your direction amongst the abuse we both receive, do you:

A) think the perpetrators deserve harsher treatment for your attack than mine?

And,

B) by what degree should their punishment be harsher?

 

[emanymton]

So if we both get assaulted on a night out, receive the same injuries etc with the only difference being that some racial epithets are thrown your direction amongst the abuse we both receive, do you:

A) think the perpetrators deserve harsher treatment for your attack than mine?

And,

B) by what degree should their punishment be harsher?

I've mentioned this before, but years ago I was walking home from work around midnight, and there was a bunch Asian lads walking on the opposite side of the road. One of them crossed over and threatened to bottle me because I was white. I wss able diffuse the situation and he went back to the others. As it happens one of the others had crossed over at the same time and walked a little way behind us, and he came up to me apologized, said the other guy was drunk and he wouldn't have let anything happen.

The point of this is being the odd sort I am, as I carried on with my walk home, I considered the politics of this and what it would have meant if I had actually been attacked.

Any attack would clearly have had a racial motivation to it. But I realized that this would not mean I was a victim of racism. Whatever the impact an attack, being attacked for being white would have no more impact on me than being attacked for no reason, or because I wear glasses. Being a victim of racism is not about single isolated incidents, however unpleasant they may be. Racism is a constant presence, that impacts people's lives in a multitude of ways. I realised that while I (a white English person in Britain) could be a victim of a racially motivated attack, I cannot experience racism. There is a qualitative difference between the two.

But whether that difference should affect sentencing is another question and one I am going to duck. No least because the law would no doubt disagree with me, and would treat an attack on me the same as an attack on someone for being black.

Edited to add 'English'.

 

[andysays]

Maybe ask Andysays, he brought it into the conversation.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I've mentioned this before, but years ago I was walking home from work around midnight, and there was a bunch Asian lads walking on the opposite side of the road. One of them crossed over and threatened to bottle me because I was white. I wss able diffuse the situation and he went back to the others. As it happens one of the others had crossed over at the same time and walked a little way behind us, and he came up to me apologized, said the other guy was drunk and he wouldn't have let anything happen.

The point of this is being the odd sort I am, as I carried on with my walk home, I considered the politics of this and what it would have meant if I had actually been attacked.

Any attack would clearly have had a racial motivation to it. But I realized that this would not mean I was a victim of racism. Whatever the impact an attack, being attacked for being white would have no more impact on me than being attacked for no reason, or because I wear glasses. Being a victim of racism is not about single isolated incidents, however unpleasant they may be. Racism is a constant presence, that impacts people's lives in a multitude of ways. I realised that while I (a white person in Britain) could be a victim of a racially motivated attack, I cannot experience racism. There is a qualitative difference between the two.

But whether that difference should affect sentencing is another question and one I am going to duck. No least because the law would no doubt disagree with me, and would treat an attack on me the same as an attack on someone for being black.

When people state that white people can’t experience racism in the same way that black people do I’m always reminded of the those notes put in windows or newspapers of no blacks, no Irish, no dogs.
Presumably it wasn’t as bad for the Irish.

 

[Thimble Queen]

See my post above.

 

[emanymton]

When people state that white people can’t experience racism in the same way that black people do I’m always reminded of the those notes put in windows or newspapers of no blacks, no Irish, no dogs.
Presumably it wasn’t as bad for the Irish.

Oh come on, that's not a fair reading and you know it. But if it helps I'll make a slight edit.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Oh come on, that's not a fair reading and you know it. But if it helps I'll make a slight edit.

It was meant as a wider point and something that identity politics always overlooks. It wasn’t just brown people who were under the colonial heel or experience racial abuse in the U.K. But these arguments always boil it down to exactly that.

 

[Red Sky]

So if we both get assaulted on a night out, receive the same injuries etc with the only difference being that some racial epithets are thrown your direction amongst the abuse we both receive, do you:

A) think the perpetrators deserve harsher treatment for your attack than mine?

And,

B) by what degree should their punishment be harsher?

The judiciary reserve enormous rights to themselves over discretion in sentencing in any case.

 

[lazythursday]

When did it become acceptable for any efforts to combat racism to be sneered at as identity politics? It's fucking depressing. I totally get the critique of where identity politics has led us but you know, throwing babies out with the bathwater and all that.

 

[ddraig]

When did it become acceptable for any efforts to combat racism to be sneered at as identity politics? It's fucking depressing. I totally get the critique of where identity politics has led us but you know, throwing babies out with the bathwater and all that.

it's not acceptable it's just shitheads like magnus and their shitty agendas
see the alt right mob and people who keep saying antifa are as bad as fascists etc, loads of dullards and liberals have lapped it up

 

[Spymaster]

So if we both get assaulted on a night out, receive the same injuries etc with the only difference being that some racial epithets are thrown your direction amongst the abuse we both receive, do you:

A) think the perpetrators deserve harsher treatment for your attack than mine?

And,

B) by what degree should their punishment be harsher?

Possibly, but I think we need to be careful with what we call "racially motivated/aggravated". If the person assaulting me just happened to call me a black bastard whilst he was doing it, it wouldn't necessarily be a racially motivated attack. If however he has told his mates before he did it "I'm going to slap a paki tonight" then it most certainly would be. In the latter case then yes. Certainly it should be punished more harshly than a similarly weighted (but non-racially motivated) attack on you. If the attack on you was racially based then the same would apply.

We have largely decided that racism/religious hatred etc, are unacceptable so when there is an element of these present in other crimes we load the punishment because we consider it to be even more serious than had those crimes happened in isolation. I really cant see why you would think otherwise.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Possibly, but I think we need to be a little bit careful with what we call "racially motivated/aggravated". If the person assaulting me
just happened to call me a black bastard whilst he was doing it, it wouldn't necessarily be a racially motivated attack. If however he has told his mates before he did it "I'm going to slap a paki tonight" then it most certainly would be. In the latter case then yes. Certainly it should be punished more harshly than a similarly weighted (but non-racially motivated) attack on you. If the attack on you was racially based then the same would apply.

I’m not sure how you’d know that someone had privately expressed that they were planning on committing a racial attack beyond their mates dobbing them in, which is why I used the example of racial epithets being used during an attack.

We have largely decided that racism/religious hatred etc, are unacceptable so when there is an element of these included in other crimes we load the punishment because we consider it to be even more serious than had those crimes happened in isolation. I really cant see why you would think otherwise.

I agree they’re unacceptable but what was being discussed was that if someone decides to give someone a clip because of their behaviour and they end up in the dock because of it then they could be treated more harshly for twatting a brown nonce than a white one.
And then the conversation moved onto protected characteristics and the hypothetical situation I posed to you (in response to one posed to me) which you found difficult to answer. And I knew you would find it difficult to answer.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m not sure how you’d know that someone had privately expressed that they were planning on committing a racial attack beyond their mates dobbing them in, which is why I used the example of racial epithets being used during an attack.



I agree they’re unacceptable but what was being discussed was that if someone decides to give someone a clip because of their behaviour and they end up in the dock because of it then they could be treated more harshly for twatting a brown nonce than a white one.
And then the conversation moved onto protected characteristics and the hypothetical situation I posed to you (in response to one posed to me) which you found difficult to answer. And I knew you would find it difficult to answer.

yeh, it's the regular friday hangover

 

[Magnus McGinty]

yeh, it's the regular friday hangover

Are you referring to me? I don’t drink on school nights anymore.

 

[Spymaster]

I’m not sure how you’d know that someone had privately expressed that they were planning on committing a racial attack beyond their mates dobbing them in, which is why I used the example of racial epithets being used during an attack.

Don't be daft, I just gave that as an example. There are plenty of situations where an attack could clearly and sensibly be deemed racially or religiously motivated. This Bratain First shit was one. You're just trying to focus on those where the lines are blurred (and trying to blur the lines yourself).

I agree they’re unacceptable but what was being discussed was that if someone decides to give someone a clip because of their behaviour and they end up in the dock because of it then they could be treated more harshly for twatting a brown nonce than a white one.

No, what was being discussed was Fransen and the other dickhead picking on people because they are Muslims. You then extrapolated it for some reason.

And I knew you would find it difficult to answer.

I don't think it's at all difficult to answer. It's pretty clear mate.

 

[Pickman's model]

Are you referring to me? I don’t drink on school nights anymore.

no

 

[Magnus McGinty]

No, what was being discussed was Fransen and the other dickhead picking on people because they are Muslims. You then extrapolated it for some reason.

I extrapolated nothing. Mistaken identities aside, it was connected to a rape case.
Anyway I don’t want to appear that I’m defending that pair of cunts but the implications stretch wider than that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

no

Oh.

 

[Spymaster]

I extrapolated nothing. Mistaken identities aside, it was connected to a rape case.

Mistaken identities aside, I haven’t seen Fransen and Golding banging on the doors of any non-Muslim nonces. What does that tell you?

 

[Pickman's model]

Mistaken identities aside, I haven’t seen Fransen and Golding banging on the doors of any non-Muslim nonces. What does that tell you?

they don't know where they live

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Mistaken identities aside, I haven’t seen Fransen and Golding banging on the doors of any non-Muslim nonces. What does that tell you?

Yes I know why they’re doing it. I’d still argue that bumping their sentences up in this way has done them more favours than harm.

 

[Teaboy]

Mistaken identities aside, I haven’t seen Fransen and Golding banging on the doors of any non-Muslim nonces. What does that tell you?

If Britain First is anything like the EDL they wouldn't have to look hard to find them. A quick glance at their membership list would do the trick.

 

[andysays]

I extrapolated nothing. Mistaken identities aside, it was connected to a rape case.
Anyway I don’t want to appear that I’m defending that pair of cunts but the implications stretch wider than that.

TBH, if it's a bit late for you to worry about appearing to defend them, because your on-going dishonest misrepresentation of what racially aggravated harassment actually means creates EXACTLY that impression.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

TBH, if it's a bit late for you to worry about appearing to defend them, because your on-going dishonest misrepresentation of what racially aggravated harassment actually means creates EXACTLY that impression.

Oh look, an anarchist supporting state sanctions.

 

[andysays]

Oh look, an anarchist supporting state sanctions.

I'm not supporting state sanctions, I'm criticising your seemingly deliberate misrepresentations of what this particular law actually means, and people's attempts to downplay the seriousness of racial harassment.

Your stated concern that this law might be used against anti-fascists would be comical if it weren't such a dishonest attempt to muddy the waters, and your whole exchange with Spymaster is similarly dishonest.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I'm not supporting state sanctions, I'm criticising your seemingly deliberate misrepresentations of what this particular law actually means, and people's attempts to downplay the seriousness of racial harassment.

Your stated concern that this law might be used against anti-fascists would be comical if it weren't such a dishonest attempt to muddy the waters, and your whole exchange with Spymaster is similarly dishonest.

You’re not supporting state sanctions, you’re just making sure the law is applied correctly to your political opponents.

 

[Pickman's model]

Oh look, an anarchist supporting state sanctions.

i don't know about you but i was pleased when charlie sargent out of c18 was put away for murder. i don't see taking some pleasure from the jailing of fascists as bad. it doesn't mean you support the whole state structure, it means taking pleasure in bad things happening to bad people.

 

[Spymaster]

Yes I know why they’re doing it. I’d still argue that bumping their sentences up in this way has done them more favours than harm.

Why? How on earth is it doing them favours? You think it acts as a recruiting sergeant for BF or something daft like that? The only people getting up in arms about this are dickheads like them.

You are basically advocating that racism, as an element of other crimes, should go unpunished. Bonkers.