Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[two sheds]

tick them both to invalidate it - don't waste your vote!

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I'm not so sure that the Tory Party are quite stupid enough to engage in an open civil war on the issue

that.

Their urge to cling on to power usually over-rides their urge to stab each other in the back.

 

[two sheds]

they've been making a good fist of it recently

 

[mauvais]

We would be proceeding from a position where the political status quo in the UK wasn't quite as overtly reinforced by international alliances of capital, though.

Why?

More specifically, why would there be any advantage in being subject to international alliances of capital than part of them, in anything other than theoretical terms?

Or to put it another way, once outside of the trading bloc, why wouldn't we as a nation be even more in hock to global capital, being as we would be a smaller force having to fight harder?

 

[october_lost]

I was intially all set to vote remain，based on what I see as predomiantly a racist campaign run by pretty much every fuckwit I despise. I'm now leading towards abstaining in line with quite a few views on here; helping neoliberalism, reaffirming the economic and political centre blah blah...

Various heads at work have hinted leaving would be awful, virtually all my peers I know or at least I would guess are voting remain, and of the few leftists I know who are voting leave, they're getting serious stick.

 

[Mr Moose]

I was intially all set to vote remain，based on what I see as predomiantly a racist campaign run by pretty much every fuckwit I despise. I'm now leading towards abstaining in line with quite a few views on here; helping neoliberalism, reaffirming the economic and political centre blah blah...

Various heads at work have hinted leaving would be awful, virtually all my peers I know or at least I would guess are voting remain, and of the few leftists I know who are voting leave, they're getting serious stick.

I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes.

For me a win for a racist campaign and the ideologues behind it is enough for me to vote remain. That's not because every voter for leave is nasty, but because they are being taken in the direction of irrational right wing politics.

So as much as there is a ton about the EU that needs the bin I can't see the outcomes as equivalent and will vote remain.

 

[brogdale]

I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes.

Agreed, but that can reflect a belief that the alternatives will produce the same ultimate effect, as much a simple disinterest.

 

[Mr Moose]

My own reasoning is fairly straightforward. Even if you set aside the right/left issues (which you shouldn't: They're fundamental), you're still left with the question "who benefits most consistently, and in greatest volume, from the current arrangement?". The answer, obviously, is those who form part of the structure that perpetuates neoliberal economic theories - and the mass social consequences that accompany them.
"But surely being a member of the EU provides protections that shield The Common Man from the worst vagaries of neoliberalism?", you ask. Well, that's partially the case, but those "protections" themselves are partial, and are ameliorative of symptoms caused by the same body as is doing the protection. This is an example of neoliberalism acting in its' own interest. If giving us these partial protections became onerous, those protections would be dropped quick as a flash.

This isn't to say that a Brexit UK would be "better" or "worse" than the current situation. Given the parlous state of democracy - that is, actualdemocracy, not the Parliamentary pantomime - in the UK, the likes of you and I would have a long, hard fight ahead of us to achieve improvements in political representation that had some meaning beyond voting for one Establishment prick or another every 4 or 5 years. We would be proceeding from a position where the political status quo in the UK wasn't quite as overtly reinforced by international alliances of capital, though.

I think you may look at the EU in too homogenous kind of way. It's huge site of struggle in itself where different tendencies fight. Generally for labour interests over small, but important bits of the pie. The EU's behaviour towards Greece and towards asylum goes against many of the principles of the more left and socially democratic, but post crash all are far too weak to stump up better solutions, both financially and politically.

Outside of the EU 'our' low waged high growth model is unlikely to be challenged. If we do our lendors will put us in our place and demand we reduce 'expensive' social protections. What other 'red tape' matters? So in order to make the chaos add up we will see unfettered right wing solutions around benefits and privatisation.

Leaving at this point with the deficit we have I believe will be a disaster and cements right wing protest at the heart of w class politics.

 

[belboid]

Agreed, but that can reflect a belief that the alternatives will produce the same ultimate effect, as much a simple disinterest.

Well, it'll be the same ultimate effect in that ultimately, we're all going to die, but otherwise, will it buggery

 

[brogdale]

Well, it'll be the same ultimate effect in that ultimately, we're all going to die, but otherwise, will it buggery

Did you miss the word 'belief'? You know...the thing that you hold about some sort of socialism in one (nation) state?
It's all belief; that's all it can be.

 

[belboid]

Did you miss the word 'belief'? You know...the thing that you hold about some sort of socialism in one (nation) state?
It's all belief; that's all it can be.

No I didnt, it's just one I believe is wrong. Pretty obviously wrong. And as for believing in socialism in one country, well, lets just leave it as 'no I dont'

 

[brogdale]

No I didnt, it's just one I believe is wrong. Pretty obviously wrong. And as for believing in socialism in one country, well, lets just leave it as 'no I dont'

Well, this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere.
Your antipathy towards a decision to abstain has been noticable; why on earth are you so bothered?

 

[Coolfonz]

Whatever the polls say you can whack another few points on the brexit percentage - bound to be a load of "Shy Brexitiers" about.

Really? They don't seem that shy to me.

 

[youngian]

been around since italy for me. I'll drag the quotes out if you like? But by all means, do your best to paint others as unaware when to my eyes the bleatings from your quarter only started recently when the EU ref campaigns started and you realised 'holy shit they fucking hate us and might fuck us up'

you'll win anyway. Your sorts always do.

I've argued for the importance of binding Europe together for years in a pragmatic understated way. Yes the EU is boring and not sexy but that's the whole point. But I'm a total failure who has never been able to make myself heard over the populist anti-politics din that its playing with fire to break up this organisation. Which is apparently run by venal self-serving parasites forcing people to eat straight bananas or are puppets of the multinationals.

I'm not a bandwagon jumper but a long standing member of Labour Movement for Europe just like Jo Cox and I don't want to argue because my heart broke last week and I'm exhausted from pounding streets and doorsteps for weeks trying to make grown-up arguments to people whose eyes just glaze over. Don't worry the caravan will have moved on by Wednesday and a bit of contrition and cheeky chappy common sense from Boris and Farage should swing the polls your way. The populists might well get your country back on Thursday. Just show me the door and I leave in a quite dignified English way. And just to clarify I've never received a penny from the EU.

 

[DotCommunist]

they've been making a good fist of it recently

they'll unite over common cause again soon enough. They have been an enduring political force for over a hundred years cos when the chips are down they form ranks. Its not beyond us to do the same, the rights we've won as a class came long before the EU

trying to make grown-up arguments to people whose eyes just glaze over.

I wonder why people hearing your 'grown up' arguments switch off? is it because condescension and arrogance rapidly make people switch off? Or is it cos they are thick racists? so hard to tell

 

[butchersapron]

"long standing member of Labour Movement for Europe just like Jo Cox"

 

[belboid]

Well, this discussion doesn't appear to be going anywhere.
Your antipathy towards a decision to abstain has been noticable; why on earth are you so bothered?

Because I think it is patently obviously crap. And you haven't made any coherent argument to suggest otherwise, sorry. What have you said there than capital will win either way? Which is clearly true, but it will still make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives. And while capital will survive either way, it prefers one result over the other.

If it doesnt matter, why are you so bothered about anyone else being bothered?

The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain, specifically to counterbalance my leave vote, so its been a bit of a waste of an argument really.

 

[brogdale]

Because I think it is patently obviously crap. And you haven't made any coherent argument to suggest otherwise, sorry. What have you said there than capital will win either way? Which is clearly true, but it will still make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives. And while capital will survive either way, it prefers one result over the other.

If it doesnt matter, why are you so bothered about anyone else being bothered?

The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain, specifically to counterbalance my leave vote, so its been a bit of a waste of an argument really.

OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives"?

 

[toblerone3]

For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in. To fight for increased democracy in the EU and against the rise of the right in Central Europe.
Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'

 

[brogdale]

For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in.
Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'

More worryingly, he thought the same about Greece.

 

[belboid]

OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives"?

as I said over on the 'aftermath'thread -

Every chance of an election fairly soon after the vote, as there is a strong chance that the tories tear themselves apart just enough to lose their majority. Boris couldn't get a majority to back any really radical changes - the kind the remain camp tell us will definitely happen if we vote Leave - so either there'd be a slightly more right wing government in office, or it would collapse heralding a new generasl election. Dont forget, after all the other unelected PM's mentioned above, they all were pretty much continuations of what had gone before (and with both Brown and Major there were certainly calls for new elections).

Other than that, a leave vote will see a recession pretty quickly. The 'recovery' is already so shit that it will take next to nothing to knock it over the brink, and if we vote leave, there will definitely be a shedload of companies who decide to hold off new investment while they see what happens in negotiations. As well as a small number who decide that they will simply go. Almost no way they'll be an immediate upside to counterbalance that.

Also, there will be an upsurge in migration, particularly in, as people decide to take advantage of the possibilities of doing so for what might be the last time.

And it'll be Jeremy Corbyn's fault. Whatever 'it' is.

So, migrant workers will be even more precarious, and there wont be the increase in service provision required to accommodate them, and more people will be out of work.

 

[brogdale]

as I said over on the 'aftermath'thread -


So, migrant workers will be even more precarious, and there wont be the increase in service provision required to accommodate them, and more people will be out of work.

That's what you're voting for?

 

[butchersapron]

For all of you who are influenced by the EU treatment of Greece's Anti-Austerity government in voting for Brexit, listen to Yanis Varoufakis the former Greek Finance Minister saying in an interview by Owen Jones, that although "I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose..." he strongly believes that Britain needs to vote to stay in. To fight for increased democracy in the EU and against the rise of the right in Central Europe.
Yanis Varoufakis: 'I'd love to give Brussels a bloody nose'

Why?

 

[toblerone3]

Why?

Because it might get you to change your mind about voting for Brexit.

 

[NoXion]

So Varoufakis is saying we should stay in the EU even though he was part of a government that pretty much capitulated to the demands of the EU bureaucracy. Tell me again why we should listen to that fucking fraud?

 

[belboid]

That's what you're voting for?

No, I'm voting on a (presumed/wildly guessed at) longer term basis, but if you think that is irrelevant, the likely immediate impact is as described above, and should be opposed.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So Varoufakis is saying we should stay in the EU even though he was part of a government that pretty much capitulated to the demands of the EU bureaucracy. Tell me again why we should listen to that fucking fraud?

To be fair to Varoufakis, he quit because of Syriza's capitulation.

 

[butchersapron]

Because it might get you to change your mind about voting for Brexit.

It has. Thanks.

 

[butchersapron]

To be fair to Varoufakis, he quit because of Syriza's capitulation.

No he did not. That's the PR position. He wanted to capitulate differently. With him in the lead. He was a lead capitulator. Where does the memory go?

 

[brogdale]

No, I'm voting on a (presumed/wildly guessed at) longer term basis, but if you think that is irrelevant, the likely immediate impact is as described above, and should be opposed.

I'm beginning to appreciate why you said "The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain..." .