My ego isn't that big to think i have those kind of answers. Sadly. I think it will take collections of individuals, groups, self organisation, mass movements across Europe which may not be currently strong in the UK, but are growing. I, personally, see this as a long term thing by which I mean a half century of fighting. Just in the way the right fought long term from the mid-1970s to wreck society.
Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
We don't have half a century
I do take your point. If the UK leaves the EU I really hope you are correct. I do think the collapse of the private sector in 2008/09 (aka the financial crisis) is far more more important currently, than the structure/s of the European Union and how it/they impose laws/policy etc. The financial crisis has barely been mentioned in the campaign and I think it is completely central.
I'm actually quite hopeful long term.
Again, I take your point. Syriza isn't some kind of perfect party, and they made mistakes. I'm glad they and not the right are in power though.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This list of things you shouldn't be listened to as you've been wrong, it's getting longer each time that you post.
andysays
Love and solidarity
It's not even (just) about the result of the referendum. It's also (and realistically it's mostly) about using the fact of the referendum as an opportunity to make arguments about the nature of the problems we face, and the steps necessary to overcome them.
Again. it's not about choosing between the EU and the 2008/09 financial crisis, but linking those things and others to get a complete picture rather than a simplistic cartoon version.
Sure thing.
What are your reasons for voting leave then?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Because the nazis are. And i want to line up with them. As you clearly outlined earlier.
Crikey mate, I was actually asking as I'm interested. Anyway, no problem, gotta go to work.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If you were interested you would a) not have come in with such a stupid you'er lining up with the nazis line b) done some research - even the most basic such as reading the thread that you're posting on. But no, we get the every 4 weeks you're all shit i'm great one again.
Crack on, make sure them investors are fully informed,
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Treacle Toes
Time
Has this been discussed here yet?
There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
Is this likely or possible?
Also how will left-wing exiters ensure that their reasons for voting leave are not drowned out by the right-wing campaign rhetoric? How will a vote to leave be used by the 'left' to undermine the establishment? My worry is that it will be drowned out. Serious questions btw and I would be grateful if someone could respond without sneering or condescension.
There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
Is this likely or possible?
Also how will left-wing exiters ensure that their reasons for voting leave are not drowned out by the right-wing campaign rhetoric? How will a vote to leave be used by the 'left' to undermine the establishment? My worry is that it will be drowned out. Serious questions btw and I would be grateful if someone could respond without sneering or condescension.
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stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Meh.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Is this likely or possible?
If Leave does win, I don't see this unlikely at all. Look at Ireland, look at how the constitution morphed into the Lisbon Treaty.
bi0boy
Power User
I don't see it. A key leave demand is an end to the free movement of people, and I don't think the other 27 states are going to unanimously agree on any concessions there.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Yes, I must admit I thought about this a while ago & this has received some publicity that the referendum result is not legally binding. It's quite possible that even if the vote is for out the government could vote to stay in. The SNP have pointed out that if Scottish voters vote to stay in but the majority UK vote is out they will want another independence vote & so on. Either way I would guess the result will be close but if narrowly out the outers will be throwing their toys out of the pram if Lab/Tory combined vote decide to stay in but even if another General Election was held either soon or after the full term, whoever got in it would probably be unlikely to change the parliament majority of those wishing to stay in. Camo never wanted this referendum, he only agreed to it to stop tory voters voting ukip & he did not expect to get an overall majority so he did not expect it to happen. I wonder if it was deliberate to not make it legally binding just in case? So interesting times.Has this been discussed here yet?
There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
Is this likely or possible?
Also how will left-wing exiters ensure that their reasons for voting leave are not drowned out by the right-wing campaign rhetoric? How will a vote to leave be used 'left' to undermine the establishment? My worry is that it will be drowned out. Serious questions btw and I would be grateful if someone could respond without sneering or condescension.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
(my emphasis)I'm in general agreement with you but it was Youngian not Yossarian which can out with the really out of order remark
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Meh.
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J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Not just Ireland. The Dutch and the French also rejected the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe which the Treaty of Lisbon later replaced.
Prior to joining the leave campaign officially Boris Johnson said that voting no might be a good idea because we would then 'get a better deal', I think it's the most likely scenario.
andysays
Love and solidarity
We don't often have referendums in Britain, because the general assumption is that Parliament is sovereign, not the people. I'm pretty sure that they're generally regarded as advisory rather than legally binding (though I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong) so I wouldn't read too much into this particular one being advisory.
Cameron decided to do this, on the basis that (i) his preferred option (Remain) would win and that (ii) it would see off many of his pro-exit political opponents both within and outside the Tory party. Subsequent events have suggested he may not have got that quite right...
I still think Remain will win, but one of the few things which could make the political situation worse for Cameron and his fellow pro-Remain Tories would be to attempt to renege on a pro-Leave result in the referendum.
ETA: let's not get too tin foil hat about this, though doubtless there will be a few who do...
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I can't see that happening, I think if there is a leave vote (which I hope does not happen) Cameron will be out, in hours or days, and be replaced by a leave person.
How would that happen?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Good question, I am not sure, I don't know that much about parliamentary procedure, but Brown followed Blair mid term without too much fuss didn't he? Perhaps the tories might have a leadership election, is that feasible?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's the only way. Maybe check that stuff out before posting about it happening.
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
the mood amongst tory MP's - both leave and remain - is that if its a 'leave' vote then only a 'leave' candidate can lead the party. the disagreement is over who, and that if its a remain vote, the leave wing think that only a leave candidate can lead the party.
i believe pretty much all tory MP's think that if its a leave vote then Cameron will have to resign by September so that a new leader can do the conference and run the leave negotiations, there are then all manner of disagreements about what happens if its a remain vote. the only thing i think pretty much all agree on is that the referendum has not been Camerons finest hour, and that the previously held wisdom that he would stay until 2019 so a new leader can be fresh and into the 2020 election while still on his/her honeymoon period is completely dead in the water.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Has this been discussed here yet?
There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
Is this likely or possible?
Also how will left-wing exiters ensure that their reasons for voting leave are not drowned out by the right-wing campaign rhetoric? How will a vote to leave be used by the 'left' to undermine the establishment? My worry is that it will be drowned out. Serious questions btw and I would be grateful if someone could respond without sneering or condescension.
Second this. Whilst I agree that the EU is a piece of shit for working class interests I think leaving it is a worse option. Not just for Gove etc but the fact they will have power for 4 years, possibly more if they win another election. I'm worried they'll basically sell us all off to be part of the assembly plant for China's and India's middle classes, that's what I hear when I hear the likes of Farage and Johnson going on about more trade deals with China. All the talk of leaving for left wing reasons seems to be just amongst ourselves and is no where in the main public discourse. I think leaving will weaken Corbyn, again not because I think he's some saviour it's just he's the nearest to my political leanings and he's actually in a position, or at least has the best chance I've ever seen in my life time, to actually doing something to at least punch a hole in the consensu that's existed for my entire life.
So with all that in mind can someone please point out, without sneery condescending if possible, why I should vote leave.
