butchersapron
Bring back hanging
One must mustn't one.
Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Go back to your site/info service telling rich people how to get richer. I think you were doing ok there. Here, well...
Also quite right. There is no moral high ground I don't think. But I think economically Farage and Schauble aren't too far apart. I doubt Farage wants Greek leftists to be given debt relief, but you never know. But on social matters, such as Syrian refugees, one party the CDU admitted 1mn and another produced a really vile poster depicting them as a threat/flood etc. If the EU admitted all 4mn externally displaced Syrians - inc in Lebanon, Jordan etc - it would be around 0.7pc of the EU population.
The politics of the EU has not arrived from space, it is a result of the dominant r/w ideology in the 28 member states - including the UK - over the past 35 years. That ideology needs to be fought and I personally can't see how cutting away from the EU, which itself has a large left block including Syriza, Podemos et al, is going to help. But like you say what happened to Greece was disgusting, can't hide from that.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No moral high ground but you're not lining up with nazis.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Farage demanded debt relief for Greece btw. Great series of posts.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Doesn't matter. The fonz has already established it wasn't economical. So had to go.We all know there was a decline in the use of coal thanks. The black line is the one I'm pointing out as important here though. Over 50 million tonnes of the stuff imported each year rather than extracted herein this country.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
True, but after 1980, and certainly after 1990, UK coal exports declined rapidly, but coal imports to the UK increased - though only a tiny percentage of coal imports (and other energy imports such as oil and gas) are from the EU though. Most coal is imported from Russia, Colombia, USA, and to a lesser extent Australia and South Africa.
The free movement of capital that the EU bought with it certainly strengthened Thatcher's hand when dismantling the coal industry. part of the reason And while most of the reduction of UK coal use over the second half of the twentieth century was because of central heating rather than coal fires, gas and nuclear powered electricity, and electric and diesel rather than steam trains, the massive decline in/dismantling of other heavy and manufacturing industries in the UK - the products of which were very much still in use - which happened because of the free movement of capital and the deregulation of industry through the EU.
If Leavers don't get called closet Ukippers here then Remainers don't get to be called well-off closet neo-liberals. Toning it down all round wouldn't hurt.
I'm a Remainer. And I'd like to set about creating a Europe that, for example, Willi Brandt (a proper Social Democrat and not a bit like Shirley and Co) would have wanted. And that's best done from within. The European left seems to think the same way: there's no real push for dismantling the EU from the left here. I also have selfish reasons like living and working in Europe and less coherent ones like the feeling that I've reached 60 without shooting or being shot at by a fellow European. I can't sustain the argument that European unity has helped me to stay alive but I can't shake the feeling that it has had something to do with it.
I'm a Remainer. And I'd like to set about creating a Europe that, for example, Willi Brandt (a proper Social Democrat and not a bit like Shirley and Co) would have wanted. And that's best done from within. The European left seems to think the same way: there's no real push for dismantling the EU from the left here. I also have selfish reasons like living and working in Europe and less coherent ones like the feeling that I've reached 60 without shooting or being shot at by a fellow European. I can't sustain the argument that European unity has helped me to stay alive but I can't shake the feeling that it has had something to do with it.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Thus spake the Marktvolk.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Er...the 16.6% have also had some pretty unpleasant flak thrown.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What influence does brandt have today? The sort written out constitutionally.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am not sure, among thoughtful voters, there is a moral high ground on either side of the campaign.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Thoughtful voters.
Not the case is it. It's a lot more complex than that if you are talking about the coal industry specifically. In the UK, the EU or globally. But judging by the tone of your posts you're just up for a barney.
On Farage etc, I really don't think his or Ukip's economic policies are to be trusted, or would be in any way beneficial to people in the UK. Just my 2ps worth.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Thatcher was right. To disagree is just to want a fight. Vote stay for more of this.
Damn right I'd want to fight such logic. Then and now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
The miners were wrong to strike. But at least you're not lining up with nazis.
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
There seem to be three problems with this remark. First, it ignores the fact that the Eurozone effectively created the debt. Greece had a low level of private debt until monetary union turned Europe's periphery into the natural place for German banks to invest trade surpluses. Second 'Leftists' only came into the equation because of a failure to offer the old parties a settlement the Greek people could live with: PASOK and New Democracy wouldn't have received debt relief either. Third it ignores how liability for unsecured loans from French and German banks have been transferred to the Greek state. This goes well beyond a failure to provide debt relief.
Thatcher wasn't right about coal mining. Then or now or at any time. I think you are putting words in my mouth there. And the miners were right to strike. As were other supporting workers.
To run through the last 35 years of the coal industry would be a bit of a sidetrack. You can note that all over the EU coal mining has been phased out, largely as a result of environmental concerns (eg: no production at all in France apart from scrap) but in the UK the Tories used changes in energy policy to brutally assault working people and trade unions. When the industry declined in France - and it is doing so in Spain right now - it was handled completely differently.
I personally don't want more neo-liberalism, (or even more libertarian economics in the UK which worries me shorter term about Brexit). I want the politics of the 28 member states to change. They are changing cf Greece, Portugal, upcoming elections in Spain, Germany. But it is a long long fight.
To run through the last 35 years of the coal industry would be a bit of a sidetrack. You can note that all over the EU coal mining has been phased out, largely as a result of environmental concerns (eg: no production at all in France apart from scrap) but in the UK the Tories used changes in energy policy to brutally assault working people and trade unions. When the industry declined in France - and it is doing so in Spain right now - it was handled completely differently.
I personally don't want more neo-liberalism, (or even more libertarian economics in the UK which worries me shorter term about Brexit). I want the politics of the 28 member states to change. They are changing cf Greece, Portugal, upcoming elections in Spain, Germany. But it is a long long fight.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Remainers shouldn't get called well-off closet neo-liberals simply by virtue of being Remainers, but when their arguments echo those of well-off neo-liberals, closet or otherwise, I think it's valid to point that out
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Changing? Yes by the imposition of austerity from the left. That's the change you want. It's the only change you can get in the eu. And stop waffling.
Hi. Yes of course Greece should have debt relief. I agree with what you say are we at crossed wires
or have I misread something?butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's just everyone else. In their millions. Ugh.
Waffling
Sorry. Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or even a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.
Well, I think the Ukip vote are Ukippers. And the Tory nationalist right are the Tory nationalist right, which are fairly similar. Pretty big constituency.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Waffling
Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or even a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.
How do you plan to achieve this rolling back?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
As I remember your suggestion was Syriza were doing great and should actually do more of their syriza stuff. That's what your eu is. That's what your power is. Power to impose austerity within and through the eu.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Waffling
Again, i don't want austerity. I don't think it makes any sense if you are a neo-liberal or even a devious closet one who come on Urban to spread pro-capital propaganda. I do want the left to have power though. And I do think it's a long game, to roll back the ideology and its economic subset.
Of course it's a long game, no one here is saying anything else.
But surely that means using every opportunity, including this referendum, to point out how globalised neo-liberal capital operates contrary to our interests. If you ignore how/why the EU is a part of that operation, you're not really playing the game very effectively.
