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A "Leave" vote isn't a vote against capitalism, it's a vote to get in bed with the Ukippers and no good will come of it.

...with their mighty electoral block of....one...

...and of whom it could be said Carswell is actually a pretty decent man of some integrity in stark contrast to very many others from the other parties ( & have you seen some of the parties represented in the European parliament ? )
 
I said I wasn't going to do this (to myself) cos its cunty but I'm sick of being sneered at. Declare an interest and your salary PA (cos you will be salaried rather than hourly). Remain voters.
 
Why are you voting for Goldman Sachs and David Cameron?

Why are you voting for Farage, the DUP and all the other Brexit cunts?

Clearly you're not, but attaching this argument to personalities is making for an absolutely shit argument on both sides.

e2a: er... sorry, knee-jerking, noted Yoss's linking of exit to kippers.
 
Stupidest comment I've seen on here in a while.
Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.

Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.

EDIT: The anyone above is unfair, there have been a couple of Remain posters that have criticised this crap
 
I'd like to have a fucking vote, somewhere. I can't exercise my franchise in Spanish (general) elections though what happens here seriously affects me and I can't vote in the UK referendum either, which also seriously affects me.
 
Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.

Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.

Yes, you know I don't even know what the point of the comment is other than an attempt at demonstrating some sort of supposed moral superiority, does Yossarian really think that he is going to win people over by comparing them to racist terrorists and David Icke? Personally what got to me about it was the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that. Anyone who has actually taken the time to engage with DotCommunist, on this subject or really any other, can see that is far from the case. If I were a Remain campaign strategist this sort of knee-jerk ignorance would be causing me to tear my hair out.
 
Casual hourly-paid workers have more of a direct interest in Working Time - paid time off, minimum breaks - than anyone else. For example.

Working time directive is never enforced as they always make you sign the right away when you start the job anyway. Paid time off is lower than here in most other EU countries, and equally as high in many non-EU ones. I'm still not convinced by the scare stories of a libertarian dystopia descending on us the day after a leave vote. Especially given how small the Tory majority is.

690px-Map_of_Vacation_Days_Around_the_World.png


Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:

White: No data
Gray: No vacation
Light Green: 1–5 days
Turquoise: 6–10 days
V.Light Blue: 11–15 days
Light Blue: 16–20 days
Dark Blue: 21–22 days
V.Dark Blue: 23–28 days

List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Working time directive is never enforced as they always make you sign the right away when you start the job anyway. Paid time off is lower than here in most other EU countries, and equally as high in many non-EU ones. I'm still not convinced by the scare stories of a libertarian dystopia descending on us the day after a leave vote. Especially given how small the Tory majority is.

690px-Map_of_Vacation_Days_Around_the_World.png


Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek:

White: No data
Gray: No vacation
Light Green: 1–5 days
Turquoise: 6–10 days
V.Light Blue: 11–15 days
Light Blue: 16–20 days
Dark Blue: 21–22 days
V.Dark Blue: 23–28 days

List of minimum annual leave by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But at present in the UK casual hourly-paid workers do get paid time off and minimum breaks - because of Working Time. And getting rid of such nuisances is the major motivation for Leave backers.
 
But at present in the UK casual hourly-paid workers do get paid time off and minimum breaks - because of Working Time. And getting rid of such nuisances is the major motivation for Leave backers.

Is it though? And so what if it is? They don't get their way just because a referendum on a separate issue is won. The labour laws implemented whilst in the EU don't just get automatically annulled. They have to be actively changed as they are now part of UK law. That won't be easy for the government to do.
 
I don't really know a context for this snippet and I've only just seen it (also apologies for it being on FB):



I'm trying to see it as anything other than incitement.
 
Is it though? And so what if it is? They don't get their way just because a referendum on a separate issue is won. The labour laws implemented whilst in the EU don't just get automatically annulled. They have to be actively changed as they are now part of UK law. That won't be easy for the government to do.

Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable. I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.
 
Bit worse than stupid IMO. At best DC is supposedly a UKIP-lite loon, at worst he's been equated to Mair.

Frankly it's a disgusting post and the fact that it's just one in a sea of shitty smears (unchallenged by anyone who is intending to vote Remain) is pathetic.

EDIT: The anyone above is unfair, there have been a couple of Remain posters that have criticised this crap

I haven't been following this thread much, but I think it's a shame that by page 44 some posters are still engaging in these sort of guilt-by-association attacks, given that there are total bastards on both sides of the divide. How to vote in this referendum is fundamentally a tactical question for the left, not one of principle in my opinion. I was impressed with Lindsey German's facebook post on this:

We're less than a week before the referendum vote and the political situation is pretty grim for the left. The campaigns on both sides are dominated by the right and the racist genie is well and truly out of the bottle. Whatever the result next week that will not stop on June 24th whoever wins. Indeed I think we can guarantee more calls on Jeremy Corbyn to agree to restrictions on immigration and more Tory policies on race, Muslims on migrants.

The horrible murder of Jo Cox is not only terribly upsetting in itself, it also shows the danger of racism and fascism, and indeed of the way that those ideas can led to an escalation of individual terror and strategies of tension in society.

In this situation we should all be looking ahead at what happens after the vote. The first point is that the left has to get serious about this. We are facing major threats ideologically and politically: of racism, fascism, greater austerity and attacks on workers. Whichever way we vote, we can probably agree that the EU is not going to be a garden party but will renew its attacks on workers particularly in Southern Europe.

So it is disappointing to see some of the comments on social media which sink into a sneery sarcasm, or moralise at those who are taking different positions. As people know, I am strongly for Leave from a left and internationalist point of view. Many friends disagree. We are not going to change one another's minds; indeed in many cases we agree on most things apart from the actual vote itself.

But we have to respect each other as people who have thought through the positions and genuinely come to the conclusions that we have. I know many people voting Remain, and some abstaining, and I know that they are not doing so lightly. They have thought about it. None of us are doing it to strengthen capitalism or racism or side with one lot of Tories against another. So please let's not characterise others like that.

Two other points we should avoid. One is reducing working class people to the role of unthinking racists if they vote Leave. Some people on both sides are racists. But many are not. They are fed up with being ignored, with seeing their living standards fall, with growing insecurity. They want change and they see this as a way of getting it. Nor should we confuse education with intelligence. The majority of people in this country have not been to university. It doesn't make them less able to decide on issues. Often the opposite.

Final point is this. We need independent socialist and working class politics. When I see journalists like Polly Toynbee today make no criticism of Cameron's racism (most recently over Sadiq Khan but he has a long record), I just find it so dishonest. We're not about backing one wing of the Tories against the other. We must build socialist organisation which has something to say to people who are suffering so much, not just tell them they have to put up with it, and vote every five years, as Toynbee does.

This is a turning point in British society whatever the vote. For the left to benefit we need to organise, not tear ourselves apart over this. The convoy to Calais, Chilcot, the teachers and lecturers' strikes. And fighting racism. All the way to build the left, defend Corbyn and defeat all the Tories.
 
Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable.

From what I understand, there are EU 'regulations' and EU 'directives', with the second of these being implemented in national law. So in particular regards to the Working Time Directive, this would still be enforced post-referendum whatever the result. I'm not sure which regulations (in the technical EU sense of the word) would be automatically repealed, so I'm more than willing to be educated on that point.

I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.

I'm certainly not sanguine. I understand that this is what they would like to do, but bear in mind that what they are currently proposing with the (anti) trade union bill would be impose whilst we are in the EU. So much for EU protection. Anyway, aren't they struggling with that bill as it stands?

Tories defeated in Lords over key plank of Trade Union Bill | LabourList

This 'proud union member' Tory just handed a victory to millions of workers
 
Much of EU law has direct effect in the UK without the need for specific national legislation. In the event that the UK leaves the EU, it will no longer be applicable. I also wouldn't be sanguine about the tories' ability to repeal legislation protecting workers' rights. You only have to look at the present trade union bill as proof of that.
Which they are doing despite us being in the EU.
 
I'll vote for a Lexit when Britain starts electing itself leftist governments. Until then, there's no use shifting power from Brussels to the horrible Tory cunts running the country.
You currently have two layers of "Tory" cunts in power: The Conservative Party in the UK, and the European Peoples Party in Brussels.
You now have the unique opportunity to chose to remove one of those layers, yet you want to keep the one tory so that the other is kept in check.
That's a weird logic.
 
Like many people here, I have wavered. There are people I respect, not least some of you posters, here who've made good arguments for both sides. Yeah, not exactly an original opinion. But I haven't voted on the poll. I don't vote on urban polls as a rule.

Seriously fuck off with the all those minded to vote out = ukip immigrant hating crap. This is not the Daily Mail. Likewise, a vote to remain doesn't mean you're a Guardianista.

Things are going to be ugly no matter what happens in the next few months. I am a little disgusted at the knee-jerk stuff some posters are coming out with.
 
the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that.
I'm used to it. Out-arguing or being more eloquent than middle class people and then they look at you like you are a talking dog. Theres exceptions, sometimes. Not every member of the bourgoisie is an ignorant prick.
 
I've actually been trying to keep this discussion as cmrdly as possible but have not been able to. Left is as riven as right on this after all. I have never had much success in keeping an even tone though.
 
I've actually been trying to keep this discussion as cmrdly as possible but have not been able to. Left is as riven as right on this after all. I have never had much success in keeping an even tone though.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that posters that favour leave have been pretty policy focused in general when making their points. Some of the people voting to remain have been as well, but others seem to think that the best thing that they can do is to win us over by hysterically and repeatedly insulting us.
 
Yes, you know I don't even know what the point of the comment is other than an attempt at demonstrating some sort of supposed moral superiority, does Yossarian really think that he is going to win people over by comparing them to racist terrorists and David Icke? Personally what got to me about it was the implication that DotCommunist simply hadn't thought through the issue sufficiently or that he is incapable of doing that. Anyone who has actually taken the time to engage with DotCommunist, on this subject or really any other, can see that is far from the case. If I were a Remain campaign strategist this sort of knee-jerk ignorance would be causing me to tear my hair out.

I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.

One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.
 

`They` didn't `move mining`. Coal as a source of electricity has been disappearing for decades. Even since the end of the war (WW2), especially since the discovery of such huge amounts of gas in the north sea. Export markets such as France also replaced coal fired units cf nuclear power. Are you blaming the state of British coal mining on the EU?
 
I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.

One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.

Whereas a vote to remain is a vote in favour of the institutions that fucked over the people of Greece, Spain, and Ireland: I see your Nigel Farrage and raise you Wolfgang Schäuble. The idea that a remain vote is clearly the progressive choice is as open to question as the belief that brexit can be turned into 'a win for the left'. It's a vote for a particularly anti-democratic form of governance, with a broken financial architecture.

I'll probably vote to remain through gritted teeth, but I don't feel like I enjoy the moral high ground. It's a shit choice that we have been given.
 
`They` didn't `move mining`. Coal as a source of electricity has been disappearing for decades. Even since the end of the war (WW2), especially since the discovery of such huge amounts of gas in the north sea. Export markets such as France also replaced coal fired units cf nuclear power. Are you blaming the state of British coal mining on the EU?
What a place to end up. Vote stay.
 
I wasn't addressing DotCommunist nor calling anybody a Ukipper - it shouldn't be considered gratuitous or wildly offensive to mention that voting Leave is getting into bed with UKIP, the Johnson wing of the Conservative Party, etc. - they are the ones who have been working toward the exit vote for years, they are the ones spearheading it, they are the ones likely to benefit, and they're the ones likely to shape the aftermath of an exit. I'm no big fan of EU policies or the shitty status quo but aligning with the Eurosceptic right in the hope that a win for them can be transformed into a win for the left doesn't seem like a great strategy to me.

One bonus I'd see for Leave would be the greater possibility of an independent, socialist Scotland emerging, though it seems like polls suggest this might just be wishful thinking.

Agreed. Given the size of the left in the UK, almost totally disappeared, playing such a short term game replete with so many risks, and allying oneself with the far right and the hard right really seems a poor decision.
One has to choose one's battles, and this one isn't the left's, it's a battle between the right. All over the world the right are fighting each other as their economic system fails. I can't see how aligning with the most reactionary forces going in the UK is going to help anyone.
 
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