Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[cantsin]

Leaving the EU is not some sort of pro working class panacea. But in answer to the question, 'would it on the whole be more in the interests of the working class, as a class, to stay', then the answer is no.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

agree, and whilst it would be daft to have any real hopes / expectations in project Corbo as whole, it just seems counterintuitive that at the very moment that his own previously deeply held convictions re: EU ( ie : bosses, free market institution ) actually converge with prevailing working class perspectives on it ( he recently acknowledged the downward pressure on wages often caused by immigration ) , he bottles it , and half heartedly falls in behind Remain, where he's now getting coated for his '7.5 / 10 ' approach, and will no doubt be hounded by Graun / press / PLP if Leave wins.

Not Corbo's finest moment this imo, tactically, strategically, ideologically.

 

[gosub]

agree, and whilst it would be daft to have any real hopes / expectations in project Corbo as whole, it just seems counterintuitive that at the very moment that his own previously deeply held convictions re: EU ( ie : bosses, free market institution ) actually converge with prevailing working class perspectives on it ( he recently acknowledged the downward pressure on wages often caused by immigration ) , he bottles it , and half heartedly falls in behind Remain, where he's now getting coated for his '7.5 / 10 ' approach, and will no doubt be hounded by Graun / press / PLP if Leave wins.

Not Corbo's finest moment this imo, tactically, strategically, ideologically.

Was boxed in by Conference voting remain before he was elected but shows up the flaws in his vison of a more accountable to membership agenda. Think 7.5/10 makes sense - there is trade union and Labour Leave he has to not alienate.

If you could get support for free bacon sandwiches through conference (with full union support) be interesting to see him campaigning for it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Was boxed in by Conference voting remain before he was elected but shows up the flaws in his vison of a more accountable to membership agenda. Think 7.5/10 makes sense - there is trade union and Labour Leave he has to not alienate.

If you could get support for free bacon sandwiches through conference (with full union support) be interesting to see him campaigning for it.

as long as a veggie alternative is available for people who don't eat pork

 

[gosub]

as long as a veggie alternative is available for people who don't eat pork

which would completely remove the point I was making

 

[Pickman's model]

which would completely remove the point I was making

oh, there was a point, i thought you were banging away on the keyboard and - serendipity! - something which almost made sense appeared.

 

[Coolfonz]

From where do most of the raw materials used to make our exports come from?

(e2a: serious question - I'd like to know the details).

It depends really. But yes some will be imported. Exported financial services might do well. But it depends how long/far sterling falls/for.

 

[Coolfonz]

I thought house prices were set to fall?

That's due to the rush to get in before stamp duty went up, and only temporarily. If sterling drops say 20pc then it's a great time for corporate money/foreign money to buy more UK assets. Floods of cash out there as well, especially US and M East.

 

[two sheds]

Aren't the raw materials going to balance out? The imported raw materials will be more expensive for us but when we export them again they'll end up having been the same price as countries will have paid for them?

 

[belboid]

Aren't the raw materials going to balance out? The imported raw materials will be more expensive for us but when we export them again they'll end up having been the same price as countries will have paid for them?

Not really. There aren't that many really raw materials imported these days, other than foodstuffs. We tend to send raw materials to developing nations to do the labour intensive work, and then just put items together, or even just fling them on.

 

[Dogsauce]

After the last recession houses bombed in price round my way (and are still below the 2008 values), but nobody could get a mortgage to buy one, so they got bought up by cash-rich landlords who didn't need to borrow. Few people gained from it. The same would happen following a Brexit slump.

 

[weltweit]

Yes, not cleanly, but as I've said plenty of time overall I believe labours interest are with Leave.

Leaving the EU is not some sort of pro working class panacea. But in answer to the question, 'would it on the whole be more in the interests of the working class, as a class, to stay', then the answer is no.

I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.

Look for example at the evidence of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland (or if you prefer consider the rules on international trade union solidarity); when push comes to shove the EU is not about workers' rights...at bottom it is all about the protection and promotion of big capital. What you are doing is promoting a short term sectional interest against a long term fundamental one.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[chilango]

people lie to pollsters

...and get paid whether they lie or not Kerrrrching!

 

[weltweit]

Look for example at the evidence of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and Ireland (or if you prefer consider the rules on international trade union solidarity); when push comes to shove the EU is not about workers' rights...at bottom it is all about the protection and promotion of big capital. What you are doing is promoting a short term sectional interest against a long term fundamental one.

I don't know enough about Greece but how can what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital? The jobs market, the property market, pretty much all economic activity is in dire straits, how does what has happened in Spain benefit any group?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I don't know enough about Greece but how can what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital? The jobs market, the property market, pretty much all economic activity is in dire straits, how does what has happened in Spain benefit any group?

Do you think the working class in Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland and Portugal have been empowered or attacked by the various EU imposed austerity measures and changes to national governance?

The fact that you seem to be looking to the jobs market and property market for solutions is actually ultimately part of the problem.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[weltweit]

Do you think the working class in Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland and Portugal have been empowered or attacked by the various EU imposed austerity measures and changes to national governance?

It is all very well you asking me another question but you haven't answered mine - which was how could what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

It is all very well you asking me another question but you haven't answered mine - which was how could what has happened in Spain be in the interests of capital?

If you can't see how my question is an answer to you, then I'm a bit at a loss how to move this on. If the answer to my question is that the working class in all those countries has been attacked and weakened, then the advantage to capital should be obvious. Unless of course you see the interests of capital and labour as being mutually compatible.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[redsquirrel]

I can't see it myself. I would have thought the first responsibility is to jobs and I think a leave vote will damage jobs. It won't damage capital because capital is mobile and can just move elsewhere. A lot would depend on who wins elections in a post EU UK or rumpUK (assuming Sturgeon has her way), if it is the tories workers rights will not be high on the agenda.

This is simply a parroting of the words of Osbourne, Cameron, Blair, Brown, Carney, etc.

You've consistently argued for the of the EU on a neo-liberal basis (post 1191 being a wonderful example of that). In fact I've never seen you take a class based perspective on any issue. I mean look at this banality

I think creating an environment in which workers have jobs should be the primary concern of government, and putting a barrier (of some kind) between the UK and the largest single market, right on our doorstep, is folly.

A c&p of the language of the neo-liberals when they are arguing for free-trade deals.

 

[weltweit]

If you can't see how my question is an answer to you, then I'm a bit at a loss how to move this on. If the answer to my question is that the working class in all those countries has been attacked and weakened, then the advantage to capital should be obvious. Unless of course you see the interests of capital and labour as being mutually compatible.

Everyone in Spain is hurting, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other. I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Everyone in Spain is hurting, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other. I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.

In 2015 the OECD found evidence of a widening divide between the rich and the poor in Spain, so it would seem that some are hurting more than others.

The truth is that the Spanish are not all in this together anymore than we are in the UK.

Surely you mean the value added by the workers is used to supply both their wages and the profits?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[weltweit]

In 2015 the OECD found evidence of a widening divide between the rich and the poor in Spain, so it would seem that some are hurting more than others.

The truth is that the Spanish are not all in this together anymore than we are in the UK.

I think the crux we are dancing around is whether the EU somehow caused the problems in Spain, perhaps being part of the Euro zone or was it something else? I visited Spain twice annually for many years, at first there were jobs, seemingly for all, businesses growing and great optimism, but that changed, jobs were lost, the property market crashed, businesses closed. Now the situation is dire. If the EU / Euro zone caused this, why, how?

Surely you mean the value added by the workers is used to supply both their wages and the profits?

I don't mind looking at it that way no. It depends a little how you structure the costs of the enterprise, the aim is to cover your costs, return on capital employed being one of them.

 

[Pickman's model]

Everyone in Spain is hurting, economic activity is down overall. I accept I haven't made an argument based on class politics, I don't fully agree with it - because - in my background, teams of people financed by capital, make things which they sell. The sales revenue pays the salaries and the profit for capital. One can't easily exist in that scenario without the other. I accept workers can have better or worse terms conditions and pay packets - but many of the terms and conditions UK workers have are enshrined by the EU and my belief is that the UK Tory party ( in a possible leave scenario ) is a greater threat to UK workers conditions than the EU is.

see littlebabyjesus? you didn't understand what ww was saying.

 

[brogdale]

...jobs were lost, the property market crashed, businesses closed. Now the situation is dire. If the EU / Euro zone caused this, why, how?

How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?

 

[weltweit]

How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?

Bin busy .. No I have seen comments on it but I would be lying if I said I fully understood it.

 

[brogdale]

Bin busy .. No I have seen comments on it but I would be lying if I said I fully understood it.

That's evident.

 

[Coolfonz]

How have you managed to avoid this story that's been rehearsed regularly on Urban?

The crash in Spain was very complex, a lot to do with the legacy of fascism as much as anything the EU did/didn't. The Euro however is a huge fuck up.

 

[Santino]

Urban's greatest troll, perhaps. Years of work in the making.

 

[Pickman's model]

The crash in Spain was very complex, a lot to do with the legacy of fascism as much as anything the EU did/didn't. The Euro however is a huge fuck up.

more than 30 years after the death of franco, quite good going for a legacy

 

[Steel Icarus]

I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.

 

[frogwoman]

I know a bit about the arguments for leaving, but I'm having a hard time envisioning a circumstance where leaving will ever lead to the sort of advantages those on here advocating a (ugh) "Lexit" would theoretically bring.
Still intending to spoil my paper, if I go at all. Aside from here all other arguments are doing my tits in.

Same.