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Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

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Don't you think this and next parliaments are too short a timeframe to consider the implications of the referendum? Should people not be thinking 50 years ahead?

Well first off I was merely replying to what others were saying with regards to how the results of the referendum could affect the chances of this government remaining in power after another general election.

As for your question, yes I do think more longer term issues concerning our membership of the EU should be considered and those issues are part of my own reasoning for being opposed to the EU and my decision to vote leave come the 23rd of June. Usually one is faced with a dichotomy of the benefits of the short term versus the long term however on the issue of leaving the EU the short term benefits compliment the longer term ones, at least in the way I see it.
 
Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.


Not really, mandate counts for nothing in referendum, if only one vote is cast that wins. It's similar to a union vote, abstainers are seen as happy to go with the majority. If you don't like the flavour of either outcome, out is where you put your mark, as that is likely to fuck shit up most.
 
Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.

I love it that the police commissioner bollox elections get turnouts of 15%

I'm going to cut off your right leg or your left leg now which one is it going to be? Don't dither.
 
Not really, mandate counts for nothing in referendum, if only one vote is cast that wins. It's similar to a union vote, abstainers are seen as happy to go with the majority. If you don't like the flavour of either outcome, out is where you put your mark, as that is likely to fuck shit up most.
But, unlike a simple union vote, spoilt papers will be recorded.
 
Having read a lot of opinions (including the varied opinions of trade unions and left / leftish politicians) I'm still really not sure.

To some extent, the whole thing feels more like a tory leadership election than anything else, with a heck of a lot of bullshit put out by both sides - the tory remain's "the sky will fall if you vote leave" line, and the tory leave's "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" not to mention the hyper-bullshit of a bunch of privatisers pretending to support the NHS. Both options mean siding with some tory cunts. Which means I can see some merits in the 'draw a cock on the paper' option.

I can't argue too much with the arguments about the EU being less than democratic, too pro big business, pro privatisation and so on (which have been aired fairly thoroughly here and on other threads) so can see merits in voting leave as well.

While I'm fully aware that neither the EU or the cameron government is anything like a friend of the average working person, the idea of - in the short to medium term at least - an even more right wing tory government does not fill me with any sort of enthusiasm.

Most of the tory leave people have made a lot of noises about the burden of EU red tape on business etc, so an even greater attack on rights at work (dressed up in a load of bullshit about taking control and so on) seems inevitable. (and most trade unions are taking this line)

Johnson (when he's not under instructions from his PR person to go to Pride or Carnival and say the right things) is not entirely sound on the minorities (the 'picaninnies' comment and something about gay marriage being on a part with marrying your dog) and Farage is on record as saying that anti discrimination laws should be done away with.

I don't think for a minute that there's going to be mass deportations of EU nationals starting on the day after a 'leave' vote, and in the absence of mass deportations, i'm not sure how some of the electorate is going to react. I'm fairly sure that a 'leave' vote will make the racists and homophobes (and so on) feel more validated. And I'm not sure I like that idea.

The idea of a leave vote to give Cameron and 'the establishment' a kick up the arse is appealing, but I don't see Johnson and Farage as being anything other than the establishment's pretend 'anti establishment' characters.

I've seen one or two articles that seem very naively to think that in the aftermath of 'leave', the tories will be too busy stabbing each other in the back to stop Jeremy Corbyn getting elected in a snap election. The Blairites would probably be equally keen to stab Corbyn in the back in the event of a leave vote, and I'm not sure that the tories' desire to stay in power wouldn't over-ride their desire to fight among themselves. And even if there is a snap election, there's going to be a lot of union jack waving and dog whistle racism from the tories - and I can see Tories and UKIP if not having a formal pact, at least not fighting each other too much.

Blargh.
 
Having read a lot of opinions (including the varied opinions of trade unions and left / leftish politicians) I'm still really not sure.

To some extent, the whole thing feels more like a tory leadership election than anything else, with a heck of a lot of bullshit put out by both sides - the tory remain's "the sky will fall if you vote leave" line, and the tory leave's "immigrants, immigrants, immigrants" not to mention the hyper-bullshit of a bunch of privatisers pretending to support the NHS. Both options mean siding with some tory cunts. Which means I can see some merits in the 'draw a cock on the paper' option.

I can't argue too much with the arguments about the EU being less than democratic, too pro big business, pro privatisation and so on (which have been aired fairly thoroughly here and on other threads) so can see merits in voting leave as well.

While I'm fully aware that neither the EU or the cameron government is anything like a friend of the average working person, the idea of - in the short to medium term at least - an even more right wing tory government does not fill me with any sort of enthusiasm.

Most of the tory leave people have made a lot of noises about the burden of EU red tape on business etc, so an even greater attack on rights at work (dressed up in a load of bullshit about taking control and so on) seems inevitable. (and most trade unions are taking this line)

Johnson (when he's not under instructions from his PR person to go to Pride or Carnival and say the right things) is not entirely sound on the minorities (the 'picaninnies' comment and something about gay marriage being on a part with marrying your dog) and Farage is on record as saying that anti discrimination laws should be done away with.

I don't think for a minute that there's going to be mass deportations of EU nationals starting on the day after a 'leave' vote, and in the absence of mass deportations, i'm not sure how some of the electorate is going to react. I'm fairly sure that a 'leave' vote will make the racists and homophobes (and so on) feel more validated. And I'm not sure I like that idea.

The idea of a leave vote to give Cameron and 'the establishment' a kick up the arse is appealing, but I don't see Johnson and Farage as being anything other than the establishment's pretend 'anti establishment' characters.

I've seen one or two articles that seem very naively to think that in the aftermath of 'leave', the tories will be too busy stabbing each other in the back to stop Jeremy Corbyn getting elected in a snap election. The Blairites would probably be equally keen to stab Corbyn in the back in the event of a leave vote, and I'm not sure that the tories' desire to stay in power wouldn't over-ride their desire to fight among themselves. And even if there is a snap election, there's going to be a lot of union jack waving and dog whistle racism from the tories - and I can see Tories and UKIP if not having a formal pact, at least not fighting each other too much.

Blargh.
Spunking cock, I'd say.
 
It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then

I wouldn't be surprised if we got another vote in <2 years
 
so i work with a group of voting Tory muppet as i'm finding out as the vote approaches...

who have sudden grasped on the idea that manufacturing will return to the UK if we leave the EU

ok so after decades on under investment in the sector, it will suddenly pick up

well maybe if the economy tanks and the country can drastically reduce the minimum wage


:facepalm:
 
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so i work with a group of voting Tory muppet as i'm finding out as the vote approaches...

who have sudden grasped on the idea that manufacturing will return to the UK if we leave the EU

ok so after decades on under investment in the sector, it will suddenly pick up

well maybe if the economy tanks and the country can drastically reduce the minimum wage


:facepalm:
If sterling falls enough and stays low it could help exporters. But it will hike inflation and foreign/corporate money will step up purchases of UK assets as in 2009 onwards. Could also boost house prices as it did from 2010 onwards...and forex trading firms will make some serious dough from the volatility.
 
If sterling falls enough and stays low it could help exporters. But it will hike inflation and foreign/corporate money will step up purchases of UK assets as in 2009 onwards. Could also boost house prices as it did from 2010 onwards...and forex trading firms will make some serious dough from the volatility.

I thought house prices were set to fall?
 
Great post up there from Puddy_Tat --sums up a lot of my feelings about it. I've already voted Remain (by post) but with zero enthusiasm, while being completely aware of the negatives of it, and of capitalism.

But I did it purely for entirely negative, entirely anti-Brexit-campaign reasons. However good the left-Brexit arguments, and some of them are very good, I was simply unable to bring myself to vote on the same side as the established Brexit campaign. Whose predominant tunes have been dog-whistle and utterly repellant.

Even worse (IMO) than what the established Remain campaign tunes have been, and to say anything is worse than that is saying a lot. :( :(
 
I've got 5 beanies and three caps. On any given day I can find three of them. And its never the one you want, its a make do situation. I should really buy a hat tree

Only eight hats? You don't need a hat tree you need a hat bush. It's like a nutbush but for hats.
 
We will be holding basically no cards, likely with an Atlanticist government. I don't think 'out to prevent TTIP' makes a great deal of sense.

I think it was Grayling yesterday that was saying it'd be easier to agree trade deals 'such as the one with America' because it'd be only one country negotiating rather than 27.
 
Merkel won't let us leave without a struggle. Her project is fucked if we leave. At least they spat on the Greeks arse before they fucked them. We will get it dry for our sheer temerity.

Yes, I suppose that is another advantage of voting leave. It will do even more to expose the EU for what it is rather than how people like to remember it.
 
Well first off I was merely replying to what others were saying with regards to how the results of the referendum could affect the chances of this government remaining in power after another general election.

ok, fair enough. I am just concerned when I hear people talking about what the referendum could do to this particular tory government, as if that's all that matters.

As for your question, yes I do think more longer term issues concerning our membership of the EU should be considered and those issues are part of my own reasoning for being opposed to the EU and my decision to vote leave come the 23rd of June. Usually one is faced with a dichotomy of the benefits of the short term versus the long term however on the issue of leaving the EU the short term benefits compliment the longer term ones, at least in the way I see it.

My concern is that this referendum was called because Cameron wanted to keep his party united at the last general election. I don't see there is something the EU has recently done as the straw that broke the camel's back. And I am concerned about Scotland and the possible break up of the United Kingdom.

I think the UK is in an enviable position, we aren't in the Euro, we aren't in Schengen, and we have full single market access. The Euro zone may well continue to integrate but that doesn't have to affect the UK, and if things change significantly we can have a future in out referendum at that time.

My main concern though is jobs, I do think a lot of jobs depend on free access to the single market, both native UK jobs and those from inward investment. I am not saying all of them will vanish on a leave vote, but I do expect it will become harder to do business with the EU from a position of being outside and a lot of foreign companies, from the USA, Japan, China etc who might have located their EU offices and factories in the UK, will then go elsewhere. And who is to say whether some foreign companies that are here at the moment, may not up sticks and move into the single market area.

I think creating an environment in which workers have jobs should be the primary concern of government, and putting a barrier (of some kind) between the UK and the largest single market, right on our doorstep, is folly.

I believe the EU has helped, with NATO, to secure peace on the European continent and I don't wish for the breakup of the EU, which I think a UK leave could hasten.

The EU is not perfect, far from it, but the UK's influence is far stronger inside than it would be outside, on regulations, on trade and on the form the future union will take. Those are some of the reasons I am voting remain.
 
...the UK's influence is far stronger inside than it would be outside, on regulations, on trade and on the form the future union will take.
But isn't that an anodyne, platitudinous truism? Of course you can have some influence over any body of which you are member but, if you choose to leave, you're saying very clearly that you don't value that influence.
 
But isn't that an anodyne, platitudinous truism? Of course you can have some influence over any body of which you are member but, if you choose to leave, you're saying very clearly that you don't value that influence.
Nothing wrong with truisms :)

We do have to cooperate with our neighbours and the wider world, there are all sorts of issues that are transnational. Leave campaigners like Gove are saying, we will be able to create trade deals with other countries in the world. Sure, and after walking away from the largest there is we will have to!
 
I believe the EU has helped, with NATO, to secure peace on the European continent and I don't wish for the breakup of the EU, which I think a UK leave could hasten.
you seem to be forgetting the various wars in the balkans, ukraine and in the caucasus: areas "on the european continent". not to mention the wars to which nato has been party, e.g. afghanistan, bosnia. seems to me the subtext to what you're saying is waging war is fine by you particularly if it's not in europe.
 
Nothing wrong with truisms :)

We do have to cooperate with our neighbours and the wider world, there are all sorts of issues that are transnational. Leave campaigners like Gove are saying, we will be able to create trade deals with other countries in the world. Sure, and after walking away from the largest there is we will have to!
Agreed, but you specifically cited influence within the supra-state as your determining factor. That's just not something that will influence those that think they want out.
 
you seem to be forgetting the various wars in the balkans, ukraine and in the caucasus: areas "on the european continent". not to mention the wars to which nato has been party, e.g. afghanistan, bosnia. seems to me the subtext to what you're saying is waging war is fine by you particularly if it's not in europe.
Quite true, could Bosnia have been calmed faster had the EU had a military? I don't know the answer to that, but that it was a mess that could have been stopped sooner is I think undeniably true.
 
Agreed, but you specifically cited influence within the supra-state as your determining factor. That's just not something that will influence those that think they want out.
There are many and various reasons people cite for wanting out, influence or lack of it within the EU is indeed probably not one of them. My argument is rather like the better together argument in the recent Scottish referendum, Europe is better together, and the more influence we can have, by staying in, in shaping that Europe the better.
 
Quite true, could Bosnia have been calmed faster had the EU had a military? I don't know the answer to that, but that it was a mess that could have been stopped sooner is I think undeniably true.
Taking a step back, how was Yugoslavia destabilised in the first place, by whom and to what ends?
 
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