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Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

EU

  • Brexit

  • Bremain

  • Abstain

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I am still vacillating between "it won't make much difference to anyone's lives" and "it will instigate/cement the failure of western society for the next century"
 
belboid said:
Cos at least the fuckers have thought about it and made a decision, rather than pretending that their decision (not to make a decision) is anything other than a useless waste.

It is a close call between the two choices, in reality. Whilst at a base level, the EU should obviously be rejected - as an enforcer of neoliberalism, and old fashioned plain free trade before '92, as an undemocratic monolith that cannot be reformed, as an emerging imperialist bloc, as an entity that works to ensure the continued impoverishment and underdevelopment of the third world - there's all that on the one side. And then, there's the fact that even if we vote to reject all that, we will still wake up in a state which is only different in that it is a fading imperialist bloc, rather than an emerging one. And the EU will offer some short-term protections against the worst of the tories, and at least raises the notion of internationalism and free movement of labour.

Those of a dithering bent (whether liberal or ultra left variety), might then try and say that' he, that means you should abstain then' - but they ignore the fact that, formally, the vote is not about endorsing the British state, or not, but about remaining in the EU. And as socialist we dont want to remain in 'the EU', so fuck that. vote out. Whichever way the result goes, it will go one way or the other, there can't be a hung referendum result, so it will have an effect. Maybe a remainer beleives it will have only a minimal effect, either now or in the long term, but that is still an effect, and we should vote in whichever way helps develop working class struggle, even if only a tiny bit. And, while you mkight say these same arguments could be made for voting in a GE (and to some extent they CAN), there is a fundamental difference in that there you are voting to endorse a specific party, not just to reject the other(s)
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Load of liberal crap. So it’s a “close call” between Remain/Leave but not voting is a pretense and worse than useless, while the result of abstaining in the GE was to help a government into power that has made the greatest assault on poor people since Thatcher. But that’s ok because they were “voting to endorse a specific party”? Meaningless distinction.

If you’d had a similar go at people for voting spunking cock at the election I’d respect what you were saying but the above is just waffle.
 
two sheds said:
Load of liberal crap. So it’s a “close call” between Remain/Leave but not voting is a pretense and worse than useless, while the result of abstaining in the GE was to help a government into power that has made the greatest assault on poor people since Thatcher. But that’s ok because they were “voting to endorse a specific party”? Meaningless distinction.

If you’d had a similar go at people for voting spunking cock at the election I’d respect what you were saying but the above is just waffle.
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The two are different. With the GE your vote counted in your constituency only, so mine would count for nothing in Southwest Surrey, so I decided not to add to Hunt's mandate and abstain. In the referendum every vote carries equal weight, if you don't care either way, don't vote, not big deal.
 
Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.

Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.

If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.
 
two sheds said:
Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.

Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.

If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.
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I vote out for the day we march on downing Street to evict dc
 
It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then
 
Agreed. I think we're going to get TTIP either way, though which unfortunately will likely rule that out.

Sorry about the 'liberal' bit by the way, it seems to be used as a general-purpose insult so I'm always keen to join in with the spirit of things. :)
 
bi0boy said:
Just been swayed again by this article in the Telegraph, one of the best brexit arguments I've read in a newspaper.
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Yeah I'm always up for double-barrelled surname Cambridge graduates (born in Oxford - well, he didn't become the fucking guitarist in Ride did he?) business editors of the Telegraph swaying my vote for me.

And yes I read it. God help me.
 
two sheds said:
Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.

Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.

If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.
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I wouldn't put too much faith in what Cameron says he is going to do or not, the man is a professional and serial liar.

But do you really think that he has any chance of staying on in power if he loses this referendum? After all he has staked what is left of his political career on this issue and even if he doesn't want to go, do you really think the rest of his party would allow him to continue as prime minister in the event of a Brexit vote, I really can't see that happening. If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.
 
two sheds said:
Fair play but I care both ways. I'm half way between exit and spoiling ballot at the moment. The main reason I don't want to vote exit is what I think is going to happen after the referendum.

Cameron has said that he’s staying on. If that happens he’ll use an Exit votes as an excuse to slash NHS spending even more, cut benefits and push austerity on the poor even further. If he goes we’ll have an even further right wing replacement and they'll no doubt do the same.

If I thought for a moment it would mean an election that the tories might lose I'd vote exit.
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Leave means Cameron's gone. Remain and he's pretty much a dead duck too. And either way there is a good chance of the Tory party tearing itself apart so badly that a general election would need to be called and it is just possible that Corbyn could swing it. Which is when we see that Corbyn turns out to be another tedious old cunt who spectacularly fails to live up to expectations.
 
mather said:
But do you really think that he has any chance of staying on in power if he loses this referendum? After all he has staked what is left of his political career on this issue and even if he doesn't want to go, do you really think the rest of his party would allow him to continue as prime minister in the event of a Brexit vote, I really can't see that happening. If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.
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Don't you think this and next parliaments are too short a timeframe to consider the implications of the referendum? Should people not be thinking 50 years ahead?
 
Well this discussion is my fault and yes it should be about the long term effects of the EU/not the EU. But it's the tories who are in power and they are going to determine conditions for the next four years. They can do a fuck load of damage from either side.
 
mather said:
If the pro-EU vote wins then the position of Cameron and the Tory government as a whole is secure and the chances of them winning the next election increase dramatically. Many will see a pro-EU vote as a vote of confidence in Cameron and the government and this perception will be held by many others outside Westminster as well.
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Do not agree. In the event of remain he's lost a raft of senior colleagues who were outers. If he manages to hold shit together with the party, those who were scared in to voting remain by Project Fear will see just what vengeance the EU will rain down upon the UK for having the fucking nerve to question their authority. If he gets off with just his head on a spike with a pig fucking it he'll be lucky ;)
 
belboid said:
It's not just about what happens immediately after the election tho, is it? We wont get another vote for thirty odd years. I want to nationalise the railways (and various other things) before then
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Said this before but there's absolutely no reason another vote couldn't be called. Technically we don't even need a referendum (Parliamentary supremacy), though in practice it's likely.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
In the referendum every vote carries equal weight, if you don't care either way, don't vote, not big deal.
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Or indeed if you don't care for either neoliberal alternative...equally. Abstaining does not have to be cast as 'dithering', 'apathy' or 'not caring'...it can be a positive rejection...particularly if ballots are spolit.
​
 
two sheds said:
Agreed. I think we're going to get TTIP either way, though which unfortunately will likely rule that out.

Sorry about the 'liberal' bit by the way, it seems to be used as a general-purpose insult so I'm always keen to join in with the spirit of things. :)
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We will be holding basically no cards, likely with an Atlanticist government. I don't think 'out to prevent TTIP' makes a great deal of sense.
 
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