Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[littlebabyjesus]

The questions to ask, then, are why it's been reduced to that, and who has done the reducing.

Well, only inasmuch as this might tell you something about the consequences of leaving the EU. The 'who' and the 'why' go together - the one is obvious once you know the other. This is a 'debate' between two factions of the Tory party, essentially, and both factions will shout a load of old tosh in the debate because, well, that's what the Tories do. It's a power struggle within a particular section of the elite - one reason why abstention is not an unprincipled or cop-out position in this case.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Cut to the chase: what is your purpose in trying to prove that w/c baby boomers are innocent victims?

He hasn't tried to do anything of the kind. He's merely said that there are layers within layers of the political narratives, and that while people democratically and freely exercise their right to vote, the information on the options, the ramifications of the options, and the publicly-available information about the options is such that unless you actively research the issues, you're acting from a relatively-ignorant position - just as the political class like it.

 

[DotCommunist]

i say we apply that sly rule they are trying to do with the Union bill. Or anti-Union bill. We count all abstentions as exit votes.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There'll be a lot of dithering liberals too. This is urban, after all

it's giving you a boner, this repetition of "liberals", isn't it?

 

[two sheds]

i say we apply that sly rule they are trying to do with the Union bill. Or anti-Union bill. We count all abstentions as exit votes.

Yep that sounds good to me.

 

[J Ed]

Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.

 

[belboid]

So, no judgmentalism here, then?

Plenty

"Worst" by which metric?

Any. Or mine.

tbh I'm not sure I trust the opinion of anyone who isn't dithering over this at least a bit.

Oh that's absolutely reasonable. As long as they finally make their mind up.

Why? And do you feel the same way about general election voting?

GEs are different, so depends.

 

[belboid]

it's giving you a boner, this repetition of "liberals", isn't it?

Naah, you're not doing I'm afraid

 

[two sheds]

Why is abstaining worse than (spit, liberal fucks!) voting remain?

 

[brogdale]

wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, change the subject and then wriggle some more

Yes, you late onset read a tract that says the working class is oppressed victims, and you're going to keep repeating that till the cows come home, ignoring everything that goes on around you. You deny your own possibilities as an agent of change and you deny everyone elses. There's nothing we can do about anything, it all just happens to us. Stop infantalising people.

Just admit you've been spouting nonsense, open your eyes and look at how the country really works, and try and develop some grown up politics from that.

You clearly enjoy an internet debate; why pretend that you're finding it tiresome or irritating.

I'm just not sure that you're understanding what I'm getting at if you really believe that I'm ignoring everything that goes on around me.
It might just be that I'm seeing things differently to you, and remember that identifying a process or problem does not equate with defeatism.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, only inasmuch as this might tell you something about the consequences of leaving the EU. The 'who' and the 'why' go together - the one is obvious once you know the other. This is a 'debate' between two factions of the Tory party, essentially, and both factions will shout a load of old tosh in the debate because, well, that's what the Tories do. It's a power struggle within a particular section of the elite - one reason why abstention is not an unprincipled or cop-out position in this case.

My point isn't that the debate is between two wings of neoliberalist powermongers, it's about who manipulates the narrative, and why. I don't mean that as a general question, I mean it as a specific interrogation of what's happening now. "Who benefits?" isn't a question about which branch of a failed ideology will stand to gain the most - long-term, capitalism wins - it's a question about why media magnates, politicians etc have taken the position that they do.

 

[brogdale]

Plenty

Any. Or mine.

Oh that's absolutely reasonable. As long as they finally make their mind up.

GEs are different, so depends.

 

[DotCommunist]

Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.

knew it was always going to be a 'but the tories' argument. It doesn't work when labour do it at GE's either. Well not with me. Plenty of weary noseholders though

 

[Obediah Marsh]

I voted abstain a while back but support remain now. The reason for the change is the rise of Trump in the U.S. (I used to think he was a joke) This is a bad time to be quarrelling with our neighbours. We're going to need all the friends we can get in Europe if a nationalist/protectionist administration takes power in the U.S.

 

[two sheds]

Very telling that the Remain camp have now focused all their efforts on the fear of what a Brexit might look like under a Tory gov, there are very few good arguments for the EU or us staying in it. Much easier to concentrate on how disgusting the Tories are.

Indeed. If the EU's been watering down employment rights and environmental safeguards (and I don't know, but take peoples' word for it), then this is the only real reason I can think of to remain or abstain.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I voted abstain a while back but support remain now. The reason for the change is the rise of Trump in the U.S. (I used to think he was a joke) This is a bad time to be quarrelling with our neighbours. We're going to need all the friends we can get in Europe if a nationalist/protectionist administration takes power in the U.S.

What if those neighbours start electing people even further to the right that Trump?

 

[J Ed]

What if those neighbours start electing people even further to the right that Trump?

Ignores the fact that this is already happening. Viktor Orbán is well to the right of Trump.

 

[gosub]

Indeed. If the EU's been watering down employment rights and environmental safeguards (and I don't know, but take peoples' word for it), then this is the only real reason I can think of to remain or abstain.

From todays Telegraph
Nobody has ever been held to account for the design faults and hubris of the euro, or for the monetary and fiscal contraction that turned recession into depression, and led to levels of youth unemployment across a large arc of Europe that nobody would have thought possible or tolerable in a modern civilized society. The only people ever blamed are the victims.

There has been no truth and reconciliation commission for the greatest economic crime of modern times. We do not know who exactly was responsible for anything because power was exercised through a shadowy interplay of elites in Berlin, Frankfurt, Brussels, and Paris, and still is. Everything is deniable. All slips through the crack of oversight.

Nor have those in charge learned the lessons of EMU failure. The burden of adjustment still falls on South, without offsetting expansion in the North. It is a formula for deflation and hysteresis. That way lies yet another Lost Decade.

Has there ever been a proper airing of how the elected leaders of Greece and Italy were forced out of power and replaced by EU technocrats, perhaps not by coups d'etat in a strict legal sense but certainly by skulduggery?

On what authority did the European Central Bank write secret letters to the leaders of Spain and Italy in 2011 ordering detailed changes to labour and social law, and fiscal policy, holding a gun to their head on bond purchases?

What is so striking about these episodes is not that EU officials took such drastic decisions in the white heat of crisis, but that it was allowed to pass so easily. The EU's missionary press corps turned a blind eye. The European Parliament closed ranks, the reflex of a nomenklatura.

While you could say that the euro is nothing to do with us, it obviously goes to the character of the EU: how it exercises power, and how far it will go in extremis.

 

[2hats]

 

[Pickman's model]

we have already seen an atrocity on the scale of orlando, eleven years ago, caused in large measure by the very people now using the recent slaughter for their own ends

 

[kebabking]

Ignores the fact that this is already happening. Viktor Orbán is well to the right of Trump.

which ignores two salient points - firstly that when France and Germany, by far the dominant powers within the EU project, elect governments to the right of Trump, then we'll worry. Hungary? not so much.

secondly it ignores the provenance of bastards rule - Trump looks like being an extremely unfriendly bastard. should we find ourselves outside of the EU with all its protection against others that its economic power brings, we may have a problem.

 

[DotCommunist]

trump isn't going to win. I'll bet you fifty dollars.


we're staring at the void of president killary which is such a hobsons for joe and jane US voter its unreal

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I think that's fake tbh. Apart from it just being unbelievable as something a professional campaign would put out, I couldn't find any use of it on their official channels even if they had been so dumb.

 

[two sheds]

I think that's fake tbh. I couldn't find any use of it on their official channels.

The Leave camp is already trying to use the Orlando massacre to further its cause

not saying you're wrong though

Eta says on their Twitter account

 

[2hats]

I think that's fake tbh.

It's hard to know which side is trying to out-stupid the other in this contest...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The Leave camp is already trying to use the Orlando massacre to further its cause

not saying you're wrong though

Eta says on their Twitter account

I've seen it a lot on Twitter just now but the thing is, usually in these situations someone screenshots the tweet to preserve it in case it's deleted, and also links to the tweet itself (which would turn up as "unavailable" if deleted) whereas with this I've only seen the image itself, which anyone could have made.

 

[DotCommunist]

all the leave campaign(s) stuff is dogwhistle. The 'smell of my own farts is awesome' liberal ones calling everyone thick and racist are also pretty shite

 

[gosub]

It's hard to know which side is trying to out-stupid the other in this contest...

Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.

In the meantime....an intermisson




while we await "the end of Western Political civilisation"


10 days to endure.

 

[DotCommunist]

Now Gordon Brown has resurfaced to save the world (again) I await the reprise of Gillian Duffy's media career.

In the meantime....an intermisson




while we await "the end of Western Political civilisation"


10 days to endure.

I see your video and raise you GrassrootsGo polished and not at at all shit campaign song

 

[gosub]

I see your video and raise you GrassrootsGo polished and not at at all shit campaign song

mine is the same womans difficult second attempt