Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[brogdale]

As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.

Indeed, but it is the case that, although voting either R or L inevitably entails alignment with one or other faction of neoliberalism, opting for Brexit does support the essentially nationalist notion that capitalism can be constrained (or challenged) within the constraints of the nation state.

 

[belboid]

Indeed, but it is the case that, although voting either R or L inevitably entails alignment with one or other faction of neoliberalism, opting for Brexit does support the essentially nationalist notion that capitalism can be constrained (or challenged) within the constraints of the nation state.

so vote remain then you dithering twat. Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, which is all an abstention is

 

[brogdale]

so vote remain then you dithering twat. Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, which is all an abstention is

I'm not dithering at all, thanks.

 

[redsquirrel]

As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.

And of course there are growing (far)-right parties in France, the Netherlands, Austria, Sweden, Poland ....

 

[belboid]

I'm not dithering at all, thanks.

glad your moral superiority is holding up

 

[brogdale]

glad your moral superiority is holding up

If that's your perception, so be it...but being true to one's own beliefs does not have to equate to moral superiority. Nor have I claimed it; I see no moral position in this referendum.

 

[seventh bullet]

Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit. Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk.
Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.
Fuck that.

Putin has a worse far-right to deal with and the state is much more harsh in bringing out the ban hammer.

 

[newbie]

Earlier you seemed to understand the nature of working class people voting against their own interests.

So, your position is that capitalism is not all bad, some (older) working class voters have created neoliberalism through their patterns of voting, now they don't like what they've brought about and, as a consequence, are voting Brexit?
Have you thought all this through?

please stop wriggling.

Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth: I have not said "capitalism is not all bad".

You said

we are all victims of capitalism.
Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change.

the inescapable logic of that is that there is an objective and unambiguous (class) interest against which they can vote. So why not just acknowledge that and we can move on?

The fact is that you're tying yourself in knots to paint all over 55s- the baby boomers, of whom there are a disproportionate number- as (unwilling, passive) victims of neoliberalism, rather than recognising that many (not all) are demonstrably beneficiaries and all have had regular opportunities to change the political direction had they so chosen. I don't know why you're doing that, care to explain?

No government from 1979 onwards has been elected without the support of that group of voters, and arguably every time (except perhaps 1997) that they've not endorsed the status quo it's been to vote for an explicitly more not less neolib party. If you'd bothered to peep out of your ivory tower you'd have noticed it happening.

And for an awful lot of them it has worked out rather beneficially. Todays news mentions in passing “The baby boomers are now making capital gains at the expense of their children. Between 2000 and 2014, average earnings rose by 51%, but average house prices rose by 132%.” There are loads of other examples of advantages they've taken yet denied to younger, less powerful generations (higher education grants, mutual financial institutions and strong trades unions for starters). Denied by voting with their feet as well as in elections. If you're looking for victims of neoliberalism it is not all the over 55s as a group.

This is a referendum thread, so a bit of speculation: the same group of voters is once again going to play a significant, perhaps decisive, part in choosing the political direction of the country (and all of Europe come to that). We're all, I think, agreed that there is no option for them to vote against neoliberalism (or capitalism) even if (by some miracle) they wanted to. To my eye there is no consensus, here or in the mainstream, on which outcome will best promote or hinder the neoliberal project (or 'capital' or 'the economy', whatever it's called). There is, however, some suggestion that older working class voters are more likely to favour Out than In. If I'm right, and they've consistently endorsed neoliberalism, then maybe there's a lesson there somewhere. As a group they've been selfishly wrong all my life, am I really to believe they're voting altruistically now?

If no-one minds I'm not going to directly respond to the points made by others.

 

[brogdale]

please stop wriggling.

Also I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth: I have not said "capitalism is not all bad".

You said


the inescapable logic of that is that there is an objective and unambiguous (class) interest against which they can vote. So why not just acknowledge that and we can move on?

The fact is that you're tying yourself in knots to paint all over 55s- the baby boomers, of whom there are a disproportionate number- as (unwilling, passive) victims of neoliberalism, rather than recognising that many (not all) are demonstrably beneficiaries and all have had regular opportunities to change the political direction had they so chosen. I don't know why you're doing that, care to explain?

No government from 1979 onwards has been elected without the support of that group of voters, and arguably every time (except perhaps 1997) that they've not endorsed the status quo it's been to vote for an explicitly more not less neolib party. If you'd bothered to peep out of your ivory tower you'd have noticed it happening.

And for an awful lot of them it has worked out rather beneficially. Todays news mentions in passing “The baby boomers are now making capital gains at the expense of their children. Between 2000 and 2014, average earnings rose by 51%, but average house prices rose by 132%.” There are loads of other examples of advantages they've taken yet denied to younger, less powerful generations (higher education grants, mutual financial institutions and strong trades unions for starters). Denied by voting with their feet as well as in elections. If you're looking for victims of neoliberalism it is not all the over 55s as a group.

This is a referendum thread, so a bit of speculation: the same group of voters is once again going to play a significant, perhaps decisive, part in choosing the political direction of the country (and all of Europe come to that). We're all, I think, agreed that there is no option for them to vote against neoliberalism (or capitalism) even if (by some miracle) they wanted to. To my eye there is no consensus, here or in the mainstream, on which outcome will best promote or hinder the neoliberal project (or 'capital' or 'the economy', whatever it's called). There is, however, some suggestion that older working class voters are more likely to favour Out than In. If I'm right, and they've consistently endorsed neoliberalism, then maybe there's a lesson there somewhere. As a group they've been selfishly wrong all my life, am I really to believe they're voting altruistically now?

If no-one minds I'm not going to directly respond to the points made by others.

Any non-capitalist voting for (neolib) parties of capital is, by definition, voting against their own class interest. Anyone doing so, whether 55+ or not, demonstrates very clearly the persuasive power of cultural hegemonic processes in our bourgeois, representative democracy.
I note that whilst you claim I inhabit an ivory tower ( ) you're happy to post preposterous guff like this:-

There is, however, some suggestion that older working class voters are more likely to favour Out than In. If I'm right, and they've consistently endorsed neoliberalism, then maybe there's a lesson there somewhere. As a group they've been selfishly wrong all my life, am I really to believe they're voting altruistically now?

Please feel free to respond to whoever you want to; I won't be offended.

 

[newbie]

Any non-capitalist voting for (neolib) parties of capital is, by definition, voting against their own class interest. Anyone doing so, whether 55+ or not, demonstrates very clearly the persuasive power of cultural hegemonic processes in our bourgeois, representative democracy.
I note that whilst you claim I inhabit an ivory tower ( ) you're happy to post preposterous guff like this:-

​

Please feel free to respond to whoever you want to; I won't be offended.

So you are saying that class interest can indeed be objectively and unambiguously defined? Where is this definition? Does any working class person get a say in what's in their class interest or do you decide for everybody?

You've retreated back into jargon, presumably because you can't quite bring yourself to accept that what you've put forward is nonsense.

as for your partial quote, the one where you missed off the bit where I said I was speculating and didn't highlight the bit that says " If I'm right". I've told you why I think they might have "consistently endorsed neoliberalism"; hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, that they've been unwilling victims of capitalism. That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.

 

[brogdale]

So you are saying that class interest can indeed be objectively and unambiguously defined? Where is this definition? Does any working class person get a say in what's in their class interest or do you decide for everybody?

You've retreated back into jargon, presumably because you can't quite bring yourself to accept that what you've put forward is nonsense.

as for your partial quote, the one where you missed off the bit where I said I was speculating and didn't highlight the bit that says " If I'm right". I've told you why I think they might have "consistently endorsed neoliberalism"; hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, that they've been unwilling victims of capitalism. That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.

You're actually saying that people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are consciously endorsing neoliberalism?
Really?
Lordy.

 

[The39thStep]

As a proud over 55 who thinks that the EU is an unelected unaccountable bosses club I will be voting leave.

 

[brogdale]

hows about you producing an argument that it's been imposed on them, against their will, that they've been unwilling victims of capitalism. That should be easy, given how clear they must know their class interest is.

Giving me such a challenge suggests that you regard your fellow members of the class as "willing victims of capitalism", no?
In which case, why do you keep on about not accepting that people vote against their own class interest?

Do you not feel that your views are a little classist and in danger of amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity so beloved of the neoliberal media?

 

[newbie]

Giving me such a challenge suggests that you regard your fellow members of the class as "willing victims of capitalism", no?

what?

'victims' is your word, I've quoted it, parodied it, and explored it, not advocated it's usefulness. Tbf there are 'victims' of capitalism, that's kind of the point, that there are winners and therefor losers. In most conversations that's just trite, something well understood by everyone.

Be clear, I asked you to present your own argument, not to put words in my mouth. You're apparently completely unable to do so, presumably because you recognise how ridiculous your position is.

In which case, why do you keep on about not accepting that people vote against their own class interest

again, what?

how many times do I have to ask you to explain your own position? It's you that keeps ratting on about on about voting "against their own class interest" not me. I suspect it's utter nonsense, but although I've asked repeatedly you won't tell me how this "class interest" is defined, nor who by. You seem to think you have a handle on what it is, but you're not prepared to let me in on the secret, so how the hell would a peasant like me know whether they (or I) are voting against it or not?

How would they know, how would I know, you're the one with the knowledge.

Do you not feel that your views are a little classist and in danger of amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity so beloved of the neoliberal media?

No. and No.

Noting that there are winners and losers in society, and seeking to understand how society works by identifying those trends isn't "amplifying the inter-generational negative solidarity" (erk, don't they speak English in your ivory tower?). It's looking around and discussing what's there to be seen. This is clearly a concept that's new to you.

 

[newbie]

You're actually saying that people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are consciously endorsing neoliberalism?
Really?
Lordy.

you really haven't opened your eyes and looked around have you?

neoliberalism is a word used regularly by people who read and contribute to political arguments, not so much by the majority of the population, though it's gaining wider circulation. Is your point so narrow that it involves just the use of a word? Probably not, that's too pathetic, so you must mean the concepts behind the term.

According to wiki "Its advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy"

Are you going to try and pretend people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are not consciously endorsing that package of policies? Good grief! Have you really never read an election manifesto, heard a mainstream politician speak, read a newspaper?

Of course that package is supported by people who vote. It's also opposed by other voters, the ones who vote for the tiny minority parties, the sort that don't win elections. Alternative policies are there for anyone who wants them, but the vast, vast majority of voters quite simply don't.

 

[brogdale]

you really haven't opened your eyes and looked around have you?

neoliberalism is a word used regularly by people who read and contribute to political arguments, not so much by the majority of the population, though it's gaining wider circulation. Is your point so narrow that it involves just the use of a word? Probably not, that's too pathetic, so you must mean the concepts behind the term.

According to wiki "Its advocates support extensive economic liberalization policies such as privatization, fiscal austerity, deregulation, free trade, and reductions in government spending in order to enhance the role of the private sector in the economy"

Are you going to try and pretend people voting tory, labour or 'Leave'/'Remain' are not consciously endorsing that package of policies? Good grief! Have you really never read an election manifesto, heard a mainstream politician speak, read a newspaper?

Of course that package is supported by people who vote. It's also opposed by other voters, the ones who vote for the tiny minority parties, the sort that don't win elections. Alternative policies are there for anyone who wants them, but the vast, vast majority of voters quite simply don't.

So, working class people 'voting for neoliberalism' are voting in their own class interests?
Just listen to yourself!

 

[newbie]

So, working class people 'voting for neoliberalism' are voting in their own class interests?
Just listen to yourself!

Are they? You're the one with the certainty about what is or isn't objectively in their class interests, and you're not sharing it.

Me, I'd say they're voting for reasons of their own. What they believe is in their best economic interests. Maybe what they believe is in their class interest. And so on. Subjectively like. Not that what they think they're voting for or against matters, you know best.

What I would say is that your insistence that all 55+ working class voters have had neoliberal economics inflicted on them, that they have been entirely unwilling 'victims', is complete cobblers.

Basildon Man = innocent victim

You wanna try developing a political outlook based on observation of reality, rather than trying to shoehorn reality into a theory you read in some tract.

 

[brogdale]

Are they? You're the one with the certainty about what is or isn't objectively in their class interests, and you're not sharing it.

Me, I'd say they're voting for reasons of their own. What they believe is in their best economic interests. Maybe what they believe is in their class interest. And so on. Subjectively like. Not that what they think they're voting for or against matters, you know best.

What I would say is that your insistence that all 55+ working class voters have had neoliberal economics inflicted on them, that they have been entirely unwilling 'victims', is complete cobblers.

Basildon Man = innocent victim

You wanna try developing a political outlook based on observation of reality, rather than trying to shoehorn reality into a theory you read in some tract.

We've all had neoliberal economics inflicted upon us, whatever our age. What's with all this ageism?
Nobody was ever given the opportunity to vote for or against it.

 

[newbie]

We've all had neoliberal economics inflicted upon us, whatever our age. What's with all this ageism?
Nobody was ever given the opportunity to vote for or against it.

keep wriggling. we both know the whole conversation started from a post of yours about voters in the 55+ demographic.

Of course they have, don't be so silly. I told you earlier, there have been small parties with entirely different visions throughout, but few vote for them. You shouldn't need telling- you could have noticed all by yourself.

 

[brogdale]

keep wriggling. we both know the whole conversation started from a post of yours about voters in the 55+ demographic.

Of course they have, don't be so silly. I told you earlier, there have been small parties with entirely different visions throughout, but few vote for them. You shouldn't need telling- you could have noticed all by yourself.

OK, if you want to start over...that's fine.
What parts of my post do you disagree with?

I think the hegemonic misleading of the older working class is more nuanced than some would have it. Many Brexit voters in the 55+ demographic have experienced the benefits of capital's post-war/system competition concessions, and the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn. That such life experiences coincide with the existence of the EEC/EC/EU can easily be manipulated by those happy to conflate correlation with causation for ideological goals.

 

[newbie]

this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?

 

[brogdale]

this would be the same people who've dominated the voting for nulab and tories, yes?

I asked what it was that you disagreed with.

 

[newbie]

I've asked you a lot of questions and have yet to receive an answer.

 

[brogdale]

I've asked you a lot of questions and have yet to receive an answer.

I see.

 

[newbie]

the disagreement started with this nonsense

Such a noise would presuppose that there had been no hegemonic mis-direction and that all those working class Brexiteers had purposely voted against their class interests?

if you're really keen on re-enactment then you could start by explaining exactly what this is supposed to mean. I don't suppose you will though. Or can.

I'm going to bed, good night

 

[brogdale]

the disagreement started with this nonsense


if you're really keen on re-enactment then you could start by explaining exactly what this is supposed to mean. I don't suppose you will though. Or can.

I'm going to bed, good night

You blame the agency of working class voters for creating neoliberalism & its consequences that is helping to stoke resentment towards the EU/Brexitism. I don't. Simple really.

 

[newbie]

You blame the agency of working class voters for creating neoliberalism & its consequences that is helping to stoke resentment towards the EU/Brexitism. I don't. Simple really.

creating neoliberalism: come on. you know full well I didn't say anything so ludicrous, so why pretend I did? That's not honest debate.

I certainly recognise that some 55+ working class voters have helped elect the governments that have encouraged neoliberal economics to flourish since 1979. You don't.

So, if they didn't, who did?

That's a simple question, I'd appreciate a straight answer.

 

[belboid]

Glad your moral superiority is holding up, broggy.

That's the problem with these latter day anarchists, they think what they've only just noticed is a brilliant insight when it's actually just bog standard confused liberalism

 

[brogdale]

Glad your moral superiority is holding up, broggy.

That's the problem with these latter day anarchists, they think what they've only just noticed is a brilliant insight when it's actually just bog standard confused liberalism

Ouch!
You seem disappointed that not everyone is drawn to your remainarian position.

 

[brogdale]

creating neoliberalism: come on. you know full well I didn't say anything so ludicrous, so why pretend I did? That's not honest debate.

I certainly recognise that some 55+ working class voters have helped elect the governments that have encouraged neoliberal economics to flourish since 1979. You don't.

So, if they didn't, who did?

That's a simple question, I'd appreciate a straight answer.

OK.
Well, on Oct 10th 1974, some 11,457,079 people voted for what many regard as an administration that became the first neoliberal government of the UK. I'd imagine that many of them were working class, and that few if any could have foreseen what would happen to the administration that they elected.