Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

EU

  • Brexit

  • Bremain

  • Abstain


Results are only viewable after voting.
so vote remain then you dithering twat. Unless you just want to maintain your air of moral superiority, of course, which is all an abstention is
That's bollocks. The remain campaign has been astonishingly dishonest and, more importantly, there are few positives in staying with EU neo-liberalism. It's not good, even as a least bad option - although, I'd guess, 10 years down the line workers rights will be worse if we leave. However what will really determine worker's rights - and all the other issues - is what actually happens in terms of class struggle. The leave campaign is being driven by the worst of the political class and is explicitly xenophobic - but then support for leave is also driven by the way people feel fucked over by politicians and neo-liberalism. It's the nearest thing there is to an anti-system vote - a poor choice in a vote where there are no good choices available. If I vote it would be to leave, but will probably abstain. However, characterising that as moral superiority is not only a cheap shot, it's also wrong.
 
OK.
Well, on Oct 10th 1974, some 11,457,079 people voted for what many regard as an administration that became the first neoliberal government of the UK. I'd imagine that many of them were working class, and that few if any could have foreseen what would happen to the administration that they elected.

yes. very good. wriggle, evade, wriggle.

13 year olds did not vote in 1974. Concentrate: over 55s, first time GE voters in 1979.

why not answer a straight question straight??



D'you know what question has been forming in my mind? It would certainly account for the extraordinary levels of denial and evasion. You won't answer it straight and honest I'm sure, but I'll ask it anyway.

Did you vote Tory in 1979? In 1983? since?
 
yes. very good. wriggle, evade, wriggle.

13 year olds did not vote in 1974. Concentrate: over 55s, first time GE voters in 1979.

why not answer a straight question straight??



D'you know what question has been forming in my mind? It would certainly account for the extraordinary levels of denial and evasion. You won't answer it straight and honest I'm sure, but I'll ask it anyway.

Did you vote Tory in 1979? In 1983? since?
If you just slow down and have a think about it...that was an answer to your question; neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy.
btw, in order to have voted in the 1975 EEC referendum, you'd have to be 59 years (& 18 days) and over...so, perhaps 59 would represent a better benchmark?*

And no, don't worry, I've never voted for the vermin!:D

* I posted about it here...and you liked it then! :confused:
 
I'm confused as to why some seem to feel that abstaining is absolutely the wrong thing to do in the referendum but absolutely the right thing to do in a general election.
 
I threw my voting slip in the waste bin a couple of weeks ago but dug it out the other night, I still don't know how to vote, though.

I don't want to vote to remain because I feel the EU will see that as Business as Usual for TTIP and anti-democratic EU decisions and the rest.

I don't want to vote for exit since Cameron says he's not going to go he'll see that as another reason to axe the NHS and benefits and pensions after all his pronouncements of financial disaster with a triumphant "well I told you so".

Or we'll have someone like Gove or Johnson who decide they have a mandate to go immigrant bashing and wage cutting and environmental regulation cutting.

So it turns out I'm a liberal urban cunt again :( .
 
If you just slow down and have a think about it...that was an answer to your question; neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy.
btw, in order to have voted in the 1975 EEC referendum, you'd have to be 59 years (& 18 days) and over...so, perhaps 59 would represent a better benchmark?

And no, don't worry, I've never voted for the vermin!:D
ok I'll take your word for it.

I'm sure there's some reason why you've suddenly decided to shift the goalposts, no doubt you'll spring your dastardly trap at some point.

as for 'neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy'. What has it emerged from then?

Capital does what it does. Politicians are encouraged to create the opportunities for it to increase profitability. Neither can really operate in isolation from the other.

But there's more than that: within democratic countries politicians are elected and they pass the laws to eg cut taxes, denationalise, slash benefits, liberalise trade and manipulate interest rates and unemployment (& fwiw to remove exchange controls, the first act of the 1979 government). So although your word 'emerged' isn't quite right, neoliberal economics could not and would not have flourished in the quite the same way if there had not been sustained political will to nurture it.

And where does political will come from: well from the people expressed through the vote of course. Aided and abetted by expression through the rest of civil society, acting in many and varied ways to endorse, support and encourage, or to oppose, frustrate and obstruct.

To pretend that the electorate, the adult population of the country- a very substantial portion of which is working class, and a disproportionate number of which are baby boomers- has no role in how society develops is nonsensical. Completely barking.

Cut to the chase: what is your purpose in trying to prove that w/c baby boomers are innocent victims?
 
My mistake, apologies.
It's just that when, the other day, you were encouraging me to drop my decision and vote remain, I (wrongly) assumed that's the outcome that you favoured.
As I said earlier, I think abstention is the worst position to take.
 
ok I'll take your word for it.

I'm sure there's some reason why you've suddenly decided to shift the goalposts, no doubt you'll spring your dastardly trap at some point.

as for 'neoliberalism is not something that has emerged from voting or representative democracy'. What has it emerged from then?

Capital does what it does. Politicians are encouraged to create the opportunities for it to increase profitability. Neither can really operate in isolation from the other.

But there's more than that: within democratic countries politicians are elected and they pass the laws to eg cut taxes, denationalise, slash benefits, liberalise trade and manipulate interest rates and unemployment (& fwiw to remove exchange controls, the first act of the 1979 government). So although your word 'emerged' isn't quite right, neoliberal economics could not and would not have flourished in the quite the same way if there had not been sustained political will to nurture it.

And where does political will come from: well from the people expressed through the vote of course. Aided and abetted by expression through the rest of civil society, acting in many and varied ways to endorse, support and encourage, or to oppose, frustrate and obstruct.

To pretend that the electorate, the adult population of the country- a very substantial portion of which is working class, and a disproportionate number of which are baby boomers- has no role in how society develops is nonsensical. Completely barking.

Cut to the chase: what is your purpose in trying to prove that w/c baby boomers are innocent victims?
Your faith in representative democracy is touching.
Elected representatives do what their creditors/paymasters permit them to do. The transition from tax state to debt state, and latterly consolidator, debt state, ensures that (as you say) financialised capital does what it does...and ensures that governments do what it wants. That's the very essence of neoliberalism and the post-democratic state/super-state.
What goalposts?
 
Your faith in representative democracy is touching.
Elected representatives do what their creditors/paymasters permit them to do.

They certainly operate within bounds set by capital. They also operate within bounds set by the adult population of the country. The fact that capital wants to reform or modernise does not necessarily mean that politicians can create the legislative framework to allow them to do it. The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option.

As any adult will have noticed. How on earth have you failed to see it?
 
Tell that to the Greek working class.
we're not talking about Greece, so wriggling to change the subject just makes you look daft.

I repeat "The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option." That is so self-evidently true I can't fathom why you're intent on denying it.
 
we're not talking about Greece, so wriggling to change the subject just makes you look daft.

I repeat "The political will of the adults in the country may deny them that option." That is so self-evidently true I can't fathom why you're intent on denying it.
Next you'll be telling me that if the UK electorate voted in a Corbyn government they'd be able to establish socialism.
 
Next you'll be telling me that if the UK electorate voted in a Corbyn government they'd be able to establish socialism.
wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, change the subject and then wriggle some more

Yes, you late onset read a tract that says the working class is oppressed victims, and you're going to keep repeating that till the cows come home, ignoring everything that goes on around you. You deny your own possibilities as an agent of change and you deny everyone elses. There's nothing we can do about anything, it all just happens to us. Stop infantalising people.

Just admit you've been spouting nonsense, open your eyes and look at how the country really works, and try and develop some grown up politics from that.
 
No.

You're welcome to carry on like that if you wish but IME when people start lobbing stuff like "hegemonic mis-direction" into general conversation it's often because they've hopelessly misjudged their audience or because they're covering up that they've no coherent point to put across. There are other possibilities but I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

You could use a bit of common-sense and a dictionary to work out what "hegemonic mis-direction" means/meant. "Hegemonic" means "dominant", and is usually referring to an ideology or a political narrative, so "hegemonic mis-direction" in the context of the original use can be taken to mean "the mis-leading narrative put about by the dominant political ideologies".

In other words, not academese, not politico-speak, just a short way of presenting a longer idea.
 
so on the one hand they've experienced "the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn" and on the other they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.

That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.

Except that for most of us - i.e. those of us who are not members of the political class - the vote we had was "damned if we do, damned if we don't", dressed up in a load of pseudo-patriotic shit, and worded to draw attention away from that fact.
Have a read of the 1974 referendum question, then check out the media coverage. Then as now, the media barely address the fact that the worker has no choice except a choice between shit sandwich number one, and shit sandwich number two.
 
Last edited:
I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.

Especially given the way that the media are handling the whole referendum issue. It's almost as if the owners of the media would prefer a separatist, populist nationalism amenable to their further manipulations, to emerge.... ;)
 
Its more a belief that the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters - and for me this provided a stark illistration of what a brexit victory would represent.

I dont think a "remain" vote is any sort of answer - that genie is already out of the bottle - but a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism.

The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"

The questions to ask, then, are why it's been reduced to that, and who has done the reducing.
 
Back
Top Bottom