Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[stethoscope]

@butchersapron will have some wise thoughts about this stuff.

Especially as I've had a few drinks tonight and I'm tired and possibly not too coherent in what I'm trying to say.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But we're seeing unrest play out increasingly all over Europe (was reading something the other day about the far right as reaction to the neoliberal right). Yeah we'll see crap like this play out because of the referendum, but I don't think its really as a simple as being made worse by the referendum. There's really serious problems within Europe - regardless of staying in or out.

There are serious problems in Europe regardless of staying in or out of the EU, yes, and the UK will be part of Europe and its problems regardless, too. Those serious problems are also very much playing themselves out here, and will continue to do so.

Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.

It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.

 

[gosub]

Facebook feeds of mates of mates (the mates in question aren't louty no reason to think their mates would be) supporters are having a tough time of it over there I wouldn't put it past Putin to have sent some agent provocateurs over.

This in no way excuses arseholes reverting to type.

 

[chilango]

It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.

A different boost.

 

[newbie]

I may have mis-understood your point, but you appeared to be saying that the working class had no-one to blame, but themselves, for voting against their own (class) interest and bringing about the neoliberal processes that persuade them to vote Brexit.

I think you did. Perhaps you believe that class interest is something that's both objective and unambiguous.

Equally I've almost certainly not understood your point, if you have one, but that's because of the silly jargon.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A different boost.

It wins! The nationalists who see the EU as 'taking sovereignty' from the UK get the result they want. That's a boost towards a potential position of genuine power and influence. A remain vote isn't.

 

[William of Walworth]

I think populist nationalism will get a boost from either result frankly.

It gets a bigger boost from an out vote, surely.

A different boost.

I really really dislike that different boost though.

I'm also none too keen (to say the least) on whichever brand of Toryism/neoliberalism gains most from a Remain vote.

But for exactly for the same reasons as Kaka Tim posted, I felt I had little choice but to to vote Remain this morning, when I posted off my vote.

(Could have abstained or voted spunking cock --but I'm an old fashioned, OK old, git who always votes )

Simply couldn't allow myself to vote Out -- however strong Kelvin Hopkins's arguments were compared to the very feeble Caroline Lucas position

I think Kelvin underestimates the extent to which the vilest parts of the Right will benefit from a Brexit vote. He's also in my view well overoptimistic about any level of Left gain.

Not saying Remain-rightwingers are my friends or anything. Far from. Hence my severe lack of enthusiasm this morning when posting off my vote

 

[gosub]

It wins! The nationalists who see the EU as 'taking sovereignty' from the UK get the result they want. That's a boost towards a potential position of genuine power and influence. A remain vote isn't.

I would quibble at the pejorative use the word nationalism - that's where the demos is and the tax raising blah blah the alternative is Platonic caves within caves. But think your main point stands


I remember years ago in thread years ago about the Falklands where you were explaining your displeasure and saying you had more affinity with global postal workers than nation states (couldn't find stuff online about what happened to port Stanley post office).
But no matter what there has to be a tie in with geography.
I quite like that we have a distaste for the flag wrapping patriotism in this country. Am alarmed by the genie out of a bottle the official referendum has taken

 

[stethoscope]

There are serious problems in Europe regardless of staying in or out of the EU, yes, and the UK will be part of Europe and its problems regardless, too. Those serious problems are also very much playing themselves out here, and will continue to do so.

Problem for me here is that the EU, shit as it is, all the criticisms of it as a capitalist club being entirely valid, isn't the worst of all possible worlds. A UK being driven by Atlanticists like Johnson and Gove, trying to out-neoliberalise the EU, is potentially even worse. And that's what I see on the table in front of me.

I appreciate all those arguments.

But it was really a specific point about Kaka Tim's tieing in of English fans kicking off in Marseille and the referendum and deciding to vote remain because some elements will play off of the right-wing/xenophobic sentiment that's undoubtedly coming out of the referendum. Whilst I understand the (gut?) reaction I don't think remain is a simple response/answer to what we're seeing.

 

[brogdale]

I think you did. Perhaps you believe that class interest is something that's both objective and unambiguous.

Equally I've almost certainly not understood your point, if you have one, but that's because of the silly jargon.

Until I pointed out that your argument suggested that older, working class Brexit supporters were responsible for the problems being exploited by 'Leave', you had seemed content to engage with my posts. Anyway, I get it; you don't like "jargon".

 

[newbie]

Until I pointed out that your argument suggested that older, working class Brexit supporters were responsible for the problems being exploited by 'Leave', you had seemed content to engage with my posts. Anyway, I get it; you don't like "jargon".

Is that what you pointed out? If you'd said that in the first place we could have had a discussion.

What problems do you think I'm blaming older, working class Brexit supporters for?

 

[brogdale]

Is that what you pointed out? If you'd said that in the first place we could have had a discussion.

What problems do you think I'm blaming older, working class Brexit supporters for?

so on the one hand they've experienced "the hardships/deterioration of public services associated with the neoliberal turn" and on the other they're the ones who were instrumental in voting for it.

That's really all I'm saying, that the noise might be chickens coming home to roost.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kaka Tim]

I appreciate all those arguments.

But it was really a specific point about Kaka tim's tieing in of English fans kicking off in Marseille and the referendum and deciding to vote remain because some elements will play off of the right-wing/xenophobic sentiment that's undoubtedly coming out of the referendum. Whilst I understand the (gut?) reaction I don't think remain is a simple response/answer to what we're seeing.

Its more a belief that the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters - and for me this provided a stark illistration of what a brexit victory would represent.

I dont think a "remain" vote is any sort of answer - that genie is already out of the bottle - but a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism.

The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"

 

[stethoscope]

Will have a bit more of a think about this stuff tomorrow Kaka Tim- I'm all in tonight!

 

[gosub]

...

The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"

The route the mainstream has taken... this can only get more hardboiled and lead to aggro at the end (either way) .. Shame on political classes, the reality is miles apart.

 

[newbie]

...

oh right, I see. Yes, I recognise that adults who actively participated in changing society (we're talking over 55s here, who've been able to vote in every election from 1979 on) bear some responsibility for what has happened.

Do you disagree? Did it all just happen to us, were we just victims? Or is there the slightest possibility that politics is a bit more complicated than that, and maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions?

 

[2hats]

 

[brogdale]

oh right, I see. Yes, I recognise that adults who actively participated in changing society (we're talking over 55s here, who've been able to vote in every election from 1979 on) bear some responsibility for what has happened.

Do you disagree? Did it all just happen to us, were we just victims? Or is there the slightest possibility that politics is a bit more complicated than that, and maybe, just maybe, every individual in the country has opinions of their own and the agency to act, and vote, based on those opinions?

Setting aside your liberal faith in the individual, we are all victims of capitalism.
Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change. You appear to be under the impression that politicians are running things?

 

[newbie]

Setting aside your liberal faith in the individual, we are all victims of capitalism.
Just because working class people have been persuaded to vote against their own interests, in favour of neoliberal compliant politicians, does not mean they have actively participated in bringing about such change. You appear to be under the impression that politicians are running things?

what do you mean "against their own interests"? Who are you to judge?

I go back to what I've asked twice before: is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous?


"we are all victims of capitalism" Really, every single one of us? Don't be absurd.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Because brexit is the home of the xenophobes and a victory for them will be a massive boost and they will claim a democratic mandate for their shit. Can you imagine what it will be like on the night if they win? It'll be like the engerland posse in france - but out enmasse in every town centre - aggressive, pissed up fuck wits singing rule Britannia, god save the queen and waving st george's flags - and with an added topping of not so latent racism. And that will be the mainstream dominant poltical discourse in the uk.
Its the shame shit that milosovic stirred up in serbia, or that putins done in russia and that trumps doing in the US.
Fuck that.

I think your imagination is getting away with you slightly. Have a lie down.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

...the aggro in france is in some ways a direct consequence of the appeal to xenophobic nationalism being made by the brexiters

Yeah, cus football hooligans never caused any trouble for anyone until brexit was on the cards.

 

[brogdale]

what do you mean "against their own interests"? Who are you to judge?

I go back to what I've asked twice before: is class interest something that's both objective and unambiguous?


"we are all victims of capitalism" Really, every single one of us? Don't be absurd.

Earlier you seemed to understand the nature of working class people voting against their own interests.

So, your position is that capitalism is not all bad, some (older) working class voters have created neoliberalism through their patterns of voting, now they don't like what they've brought about and, as a consequence, are voting Brexit?
Have you thought all this through?

 

[stethoscope]

Yeah, cus football hooligans never caused any trouble for anyone until brexit was on the cards.

Quite.

Also, that the rise of nationalism and the far right (which will no doubt, as history repeats, also exploit football as a vehicle for outpouring of nationalistic tendency) is as much a reaction to neoliberalism and right wing governments both of European countries and the machinations of the EU. Yes, clearly some of the tone of the referendum might feed into some of it, but that its the huge social, economic and political problems in Europe and of neoliberalism that's really the issue. I've already seen sneering middle class liberals use this shit on twitter to blanket link working class football fans to nationalism/racism and to the right 'exit' camp. It's easy and lazy, and it's almost always being used to reinforce why we should 'remain' (again, by middle class liberals).

I think what we're seeing here is clearly much bigger symptoms of the problems neoliberalism is creating across Europe, rather than some England footy fans using the right-wing 'exit' sentiment as a means to commit violence. Besides, looking at some coverage today, it looks to me like there's clearly organised Russian and French right-wing and 'ultra' stuff using the tournament and already high feelings about a number of social and economic issues right now to further try and exploit and play off it.

 

[Pickman's model]

a brexit victory will make it much harder to actually deal with the upsurge in this sort of toxic nationalism.

Pls show your working

The argument about the relative demerits of exit or stay is redundant - it been reduced to "the sky will fall in!" versus "engerland engerland engerland!"

I am impressed you don't fall into the same trap

E2a: demerits?

 

[Pickman's model]

"we are all victims of capitalism" Really, every single one of us? Don't be absurd.

We are all victims of capitalism and not being aware of this doesn't mean you're not. For example, spending so much of your life on useless toil merely to survive not to mention the racism and sexism capitalism fosters.

 

[gosub]

"we are all victims of capitalism" Really, every single one of us? Don't be absurd.

Only met one billionaire that wasn't fucked up by it. Usually they seem of the view that everyone is out to fleece them.

 

[J Ed]

As long as the negative effects of neoliberalism are channelled into anti-immigrant sentiment, alongside anti-welfare sentiment, nationalism is going to be a powerful and growing political force in our society. This will happen within or outside the EU, the current government of Hungary makes Trump look like a tolerant liberal and support there is growing for an even further right party.

 

[J Ed]

This is an interesting read about how things are in Hungarian politics now, and this is all within the EU. It seems that in 2016 the acceptable spectrum of politics within the EU goes from Tony Blair to very, very far-right indeed.

 

[J Ed]

Leave still on 2/1 some places...