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Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

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brogdale said:
OK, I'll bite....how is 'Leave' going to "make a significant difference to a lot of people's lives"?
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10 year or so of economic chaos before we manage to renegotiate trade deals with Europe and most of the rest of the world could be said to "make a significant different to a lot of people's lives". Just not a positive difference.
 
butchersapron said:
In ways that have always been clear but only expressed via unstated cultural prejudices before. This time we've had people being quite open with this prejudice. Because this time you can openly say racist when you really mean people i don't like the look of.
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For example Farage, also UKIP supporters?
 
Because this time you can openly say racist when you really mean people i don't like the look of.
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Do you mean people are calling Farage and UKIP supporters racist when they really mean they don't like the look of them?
 
its what I mean by 'trying to keep it comradely ' Two Sheds. You've been fine on that front, appreciate yer views and all that. Others, well. Others have called me a cunt to my face basically.
 
two sheds said:
Do you mean people are calling Farage and UKIP supporters racist when they really mean they don't like the look of them?
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No, i mean they're using the opp of racists like that to let fly free and without let or hindrance their own prejudices about everyone else (edit: not everyone else, just them types actually) being racist.
 
opp = opportunity?

examples of that? Not necessarily individuals, but I've not noticed that on this thread (for example).
 
two sheds said:
opp = opportunity?

examples of that? Not necessarily individuals, but I've not noticed that on this thread (for example).
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You wouldn't would you. DC/stethoscope/binka/others have been telling you on this thread and the others for days now - literally telling you to your forum face (and imagine that for the whole of your life, that's what's happening here - that belittlement, hidden or open). How have you not seen it? You've been posing in the middle of it.
 
My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.
 
Oisin123 said:
My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.
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Capitalism or barbarism.

Thus, our revolutionaries. The 30s in slow motion, again. This time faster.
 
two sheds said:
well he says they will be emboldened by an exit.

I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions.

There's been accusations of scaremongering on both side - I've said what I think the tories will do if we do leave, but equally people saying leave have said what they think the EU will do if we remain. We're both in unpleasant company.

Someone was suggesting earlier on a thread that the left should sort of work out who its friends are and consolidate i.e. contract. I think that's wrong. The left needs to get the support of more people not less.

Or we can continue with the accusations of neoliberal supporting liberal cunts against lizard shape shifters (I don't think he was being serious by the way). Ffs this is dividing the left here as much as it's dividing the tories, I was enjoying them saying what they really thought about each other. :mad:
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And don't you see Bragg's piece as part of that polarization? Under the guise of commradely understanding tarring people as racist by association, unable to understand the consequences of a leave vicotry and maybe it'd be better if they just stay quiet come Thursday?
 
Oisin123 said:
My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.
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wank. sorry.
 
Yes, but the opposite side of tarring people as buying into a neoliberal agenda. It's an argument, people put both sides as strongly as they can.

When people on urban criticize the Leave arguments and the way the campaign has been conducted they're not criticizing anyone on urban or the left, they're criticizing the way Johnson/Gove/Farage have conducted it. As I understand it.
 
free spirit said:
10 year or so of economic chaos before we manage to renegotiate trade deals with Europe and most of the rest of the world could be said to "make a significant different to a lot of people's lives". Just not a positive difference.
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You do realise he's leave & I'm not, don't you?
 
captainmission said:
And don't you see Bragg's piece as part of that polarization? Under the guise of commradely understanding tarring people as racist by association, unable to understand the consequences of a leave vicotry and maybe it'd be better if they just stay quiet come Thursday?
Click to expand...

On reflection, though, I think I agree with you about what Bragg's saying. If it is disaffected wc people that are voting leave then it's better to align with them, if only to give a voice counter to Gove et al.

I saw a poll that people were a lot more dissatisfied about leave not winning than about remain not winning.
 
"I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on"

Aye, all of us who just want our independence back are Neo Nazis, Bragg, always the opportunistic slimy champagne socialist.
 
coley said:
"I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on"

Aye, all of us who just want our independence back are Neo Nazis, Bragg, always the opportunistic slimy champagne socialist.
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Did anyone sourced this quote yet?
 
butchersapron said:
Did anyone sourced this quote yet?
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Don't know, just read it and blew, just pig sick of being identified with Farage, Gove and now someone, who I suspect will prove to have a long history of mental illness!
Don't the remain lot have a problem with being identified with Cameron and Osbourne? Do they think all those on the remain side have the interests of the WC at heart. The IMF? the Tory leadership? The BoE? The EU itself (read Germany)All institutions who have wholeheartedly embraced austerity not just in the UK but across the EU as a whole, they have 'our' interests' 'at heart'
Bollocks!
I live in what remains a labour/WC heartland and most are voting out, fuck the vested interests of the financial services industry and the 'sneering elites'
 
Oisin123 said:
My initial position, weeks ago, was abstentionist. But now I'm advocating remain for the reason that I believe the issue has decisively shifted from being about economics to that of immigration. This referendum has become a vote on whether Britain welcomes immigrants or not. Hasn't in become clear in recent days that a victory for exit is not going to encourage anti-capitalist militancy, but racism and fascism? Trying to work out which result weakens the global capitalist class the most and voting on that basis is no longer the way to approach the question of how to vote. Because as Germany in the 30s shows, a destabilised capitalist class doesn't always lead to a victory for the left. Tactically, I think it best for the far left to align with the Jo Cox-type social democrats on this vote in order both to help check the racists on Thursday but also to lay down a foundation for future united front activity against fascism.
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Just fuck right off!
 
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