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brogdale said:
I'm beginning to appreciate why you said "The only person I have actually convinced so far is only going to vote remain..." .
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oh, I know. Longer term, there are more opportunities opened up, I believe, but the immediate result is unlikely to be great, at all.
 
belboid said:
What it says. Capital will survive either way, and not even humungously differently, but it prefers overwhelmingly one result (Remain) to the other.
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I understand that capitalism will continue. It was the second part of your comment I find confusing. it prefers?
 
butchersapron said:
It's not just an individual thing though - i'm not having a crack at you - he and his team have worked hard to produce this image of him. And it seems to be working.
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What do you think of Costas Lapavitsas? I've watched a couple of interviews with him on the issue of the EU and he seems to have some interesting things to say. For example, from here:

You have spent most of your adult life in the UK, I believe. So, you must be as surprised as the rest of us to see this thing which we had all thought dead and buried a long time ago, namely the Labour left, revived in old and yet new form around Jeremy Corbyn. As we know, the British Labour left has a complicated and not very happy relationship with the European debates: first of all opposing entry into the Common Market, but on a rather nationalist basis, and then switching over with many of the unions and so on into supporting the European Union as a sort of battered shield against Thatcherism and the Conservative Party’s policies.
Now we see this new phenomenon around Corbyn, we see some journalists like Owen Jones talking about a “Lexit,” a left-wing exit from at least the monetary union for those countries involved. Is there a chance finally, do you think, of shifting the terrain of the debate in the UK to a more healthy basis around Corbyn and the Left? Corbyn himself isn’t particularly critical of the EU but there is the referendum coming up in the UK and we all thought it would be dominated by UKIP and the right wing forces. What do you think, from a sort of insider-outsider perspective?

I think Jeremy Corbyn represents a very hopeful development. First of all, his rise is a nice surprise, which is a very rare thing in politics. It’s good to see that the Left in Labour is not dead yet, there’s still life in it.

When I first came to Britain in the 1970s, the Labour left was very much alive and parts of it would not be out of place in a variety of Communist parties across continental Europe. Many of its people were very strong working-class Marxists. It then withered away and British politics became all the poorer for it, not to mention much duller.

But British society has continued to look for something fresh and new that would reject the dreary old neoliberal stuff peddled by the mass media and so on. The social radicalism that is so manifest in Britain setting it apart from other European countries is searching for political radicalism.

It is apparent that this radicalism must have an integral eurosceptic component that would be sharply distinct from UKIP and the rest.

Ed Miliband, despite his own personal predilections, never succeeded in providing an answer, although I see that some of his people are very active in the Corbyn campaign, so clearly there is some continuity.

For some reason that I don’t really understand, Jeremy Corbyn appears to have touched a sensitive spot, including among the youth. Mysterious are the ways of British politics.

Be that as it may, it represents a great opportunity, but it would result in something sustainable only if the eurosceptic terrain is appropriated by left-wing radicalism. Britain needs a set of policies that would restructure the economy and bring about a deep redistribution of income and wealth, while being critical of the very existence of the EMU and the EU.

It seems to me that only on that basis could promising and interesting things happen in British politics. Britain has a lot to offer to the rest of Europe in this regard because it has kept out of the disaster of monetary union, and the British people do not suffer from the blind Europeanism that one often finds in continental Europe. I do not wish to denigrate the baleful impact of British parochialism but, believe me, ardent Europeanism could be worse.

It’s not clear to me whether Corbyn has either sufficient leadership vision, or the mental and theoretical makeup to deliver what is necessary. But some of the people in his team are very good — top notch — and I’m sure that they could jointly deliver the jolt that British politics needs.

I would ask them to look more closely at Greece because they can learn from its experience and strengthen their case, but they would have steer well clear of Syriza, which expresses nothing progressive any more.
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ItWillNeverWork said:
What do you think of Costas Lapavitsas? I've watched a couple of interviews with him on the issue of the EU and he seems to have some interesting things to say. For example, from here:
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He's great. He's been a great commentator (i'm not keen on the word player as he never got in the game - chucking himself in with syriza cost him his job and all his reserve) in the whole thing and his wider work about financialisation is must read stuff for anti-immigrant racists like ourselves.
 
Just a reminder of how fucking daft this referendum is

A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned and it is probably themost crucial detail:Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.

That is because the result of June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by UK government.

This incredible detail is explained in a new blog post by Financial Times columnist and legal expert David Allen Green.

Green says that no legal provision was included in the EU referendum legislation that requires UK Parliament to act in accordance with the outcome of the referendum.

This is unlike the last referendum held across Britain, the Alternative Vote referendum held in 2011, where the outcome had a legal trigger and had to be acted on by the government of the time.

Instead, what will happen next if the public votes for a Brexit will be purely a matter of parliamentary politics.
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There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
 
Excellent post from Billy Bragg today.


"Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.

Over the past few days, as the Leave campaign has begun to bang loudly on the anti-immigrant drum, my reasons for voting remain have become crystal clear. The Brexit Brigade - economic libertarians all - have promised that Britain's exit will be no pain and all gain, with no regard of the consequences for those at the bottom of the pile if their economic wishful thinking is wrong. They have no qualms about blaming the working class for all societies ills in the same manner they have scapegoated the immigrants

I have friends on the left who have made a socialist case for voting Leave and, while I understand their arguments, I have wondered how they can share a political platform with Johnson, Gove, Patel, Farage et al. Since Thursday, however, I feel that none of us on the left can be in any doubt who will be emboldened by a victory for Leave. I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on.

This is no longer an economic argument, of even one of national sovereignty. This is a battle for the soul of our country. If we win, we will have to work hard to address the genuine problems that mass immigration causes. We will need to build schools, hospitals and union membership. We will need to give a voice to the forgotten and the marginalised so that they can have some control over their lives and communities. And we will need to reform the EU to make it more about people and less about profits.

None of this will be possible if we vote to Leave. If the libertarians triumph, what's left of our welfare state will be sold to the highest bidder and our workplaces - the most deregulated in Europe - will be stripped of their meagre protections. The Tory Party will be reborn as shiny suited free market zealots. At the same time the forces of division will be emboldened and the lives of our fellow citizens - those who don't fit in with their warped idea of who does and who doesn't belong - will be made a misery. But if we win, then we will have momentum and the chance to utilise it while the Tories tear themselves apart over Europe.

If you are a person of the left, I urge you not to vote Leave next Thursday. If the thought of voting remain is too much to bear, I totally respect that as a principled position and ask you to consider abstaining. Better that than to have helped unleash forces that we have opposed in solidarity with one another over the past decades."
 
editor said:
Just a reminder of how fucking daft this referendum is


There is an incredible theory that a Brexit won't actually happen even if the public votes for it
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With incredible being the operative word there.

Any party rejecting a leave referendum victory would quickly find themselves with Lib Dem levels of support. Plus there's enough work arounds for a remain sympathetic government to technically leave the EU whilst still remaining a member of the single market- become an EEA member or Swiss style membership. Or hold a second referendum on the terms of the leave deal.
 
clandestino said:
Excellent post from Billy Bragg today.


"Staying in the EU was always going to be a hard sell to those of us on the left. The treatment of Greece and the threat of TTIP suggest that the European Unionis little more than a neo-liberal cartel. The serious lack of accountability and the ridiculous practice of moving the whole parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg make it hard to love. Jeremy Corbyn spoke for many of us when he said he was 7.5 out of 10 in favour of remaining within the EU.

Over the past few days, as the Leave campaign has begun to bang loudly on the anti-immigrant drum, my reasons for voting remain have become crystal clear. The Brexit Brigade - economic libertarians all - have promised that Britain's exit will be no pain and all gain, with no regard of the consequences for those at the bottom of the pile if their economic wishful thinking is wrong. They have no qualms about blaming the working class for all societies ills in the same manner they have scapegoated the immigrants

I have friends on the left who have made a socialist case for voting Leave and, while I understand their arguments, I have wondered how they can share a political platform with Johnson, Gove, Patel, Farage et al. Since Thursday, however, I feel that none of us on the left can be in any doubt who will be emboldened by a victory for Leave. I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on.

This is no longer an economic argument, of even one of national sovereignty. This is a battle for the soul of our country. If we win, we will have to work hard to address the genuine problems that mass immigration causes. We will need to build schools, hospitals and union membership. We will need to give a voice to the forgotten and the marginalised so that they can have some control over their lives and communities. And we will need to reform the EU to make it more about people and less about profits.

None of this will be possible if we vote to Leave. If the libertarians triumph, what's left of our welfare state will be sold to the highest bidder and our workplaces - the most deregulated in Europe - will be stripped of their meagre protections. The Tory Party will be reborn as shiny suited free market zealots. At the same time the forces of division will be emboldened and the lives of our fellow citizens - those who don't fit in with their warped idea of who does and who doesn't belong - will be made a misery. But if we win, then we will have momentum and the chance to utilise it while the Tories tear themselves apart over Europe.

If you are a person of the left, I urge you not to vote Leave next Thursday. If the thought of voting remain is too much to bear, I totally respect that as a principled position and ask you to consider abstaining. Better that than to have helped unleash forces that we have opposed in solidarity with one another over the past decades."
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Where's the excellence here? Isn't this the same old 'if you support leave you're lining up with Farage and Johnson'? I guess he's now got the slander of you're supporting a murderous neo-facist aswell. Is that the excellent bit?
 
captainmission said:
Where's the excellence here? Isn't this the same old 'if you support leave you're lining up with Farage and Johnson'?
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well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron.

I guess he's now got the slander of you're supporting a murderous neo-facist aswell. Is that the excellent bit?
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where does he say that?
 
Mr Moose said:
I think before abstaining you have to be sure you really couldn't care less which way the decision goes.

For me a win for a racist campaign and the ideologues behind it is enough for me to vote remain. That's not because every voter for leave is nasty, but because they are being taken in the direction of irrational right wing politics.
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One of my many criticisms of parliamentary politics is that people aren't voting 'for' but 'against' something, exactly like that quote from Douglas Adams about the wrong fucking lizard getting into power. Its the politics of reaction.

Mr Moose said:
Outside of the EU 'our' low waged high growth model is unlikely to be challenged.
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I think its easier for me to challenge the decision making of a local ruling class, compared to a supranational European ruling class.
 
two sheds said:
well 'sharing a platform with' in the same sense you could say that people voting remain are sharing a platform with Cameron.



where does he say that?
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Where does he say that?

Sharing a platform actually means something. It's not just a term for voting in the same way as.
 
two sheds said:
where?
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I have friends on the left who have made a socialist case for voting Leave and, while I understand their arguments, I have wondered how they can share a political platform with Johnson, Gove, Patel, Farage et al. Since Thursday, however, I feel that none of us on the left can be in any doubt who will be emboldened by a victory for Leave. I have spent all my political life fighting against people like Thomas Mair, who, by shouting 'Independence for Britain' as he was arrested, clearly wanted the world to know which side he is on.
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You're quite right again. I said support. I should have said left exit supporters are sharing a platform with (in the Braggian sense of the term), emboldening and siding with Thomas Mair.
 
Excellent eyewitness report fro the clearly bothered Bragg. Or was it an open lie about what happened that just suited his narrative? Did no one in the paper check it?
 
well he says they will be emboldened by an exit.

I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions.

There's been accusations of scaremongering on both side - I've said what I think the tories will do if we do leave, but equally people saying leave have said what they think the EU will do if we remain. We're both in unpleasant company.

Someone was suggesting earlier on a thread that the left should sort of work out who its friends are and consolidate i.e. contract. I think that's wrong. The left needs to get the support of more people not less.

Or we can continue with the accusations of neoliberal supporting liberal cunts against lizard shape shifters (I don't think he was being serious by the way). Ffs this is dividing the left here as much as it's dividing the tories, I was enjoying them saying what they really thought about each other. :mad:
 
two sheds said:
well he says they will be emboldened by an exit.

I'm querying this by the way because I don't like the way the argument has polarized. I think both sides on urban want the same thing, we are disagreeing over what the effects will be after the referendum. Nobody knows that, they are all opinions.

There's been accusations of scaremongering on both side - I've said what I think the tories will do if we do leave, but equally people saying leave have said what they think the EU will do if we remain. We're both in unpleasant company.

Someone was suggesting earlier on a thread that the left should sort of work out who its friends are and consolidate i.e. contract. I think that's wrong. The left needs to get the support of more people not less.

Or we can continue with the accusations of neoliberal supporting liberal cunts against lizard shape shifters (I don't think he was being serious by the way). Ffs this is dividing the left here as much as it's dividing the tories, I was enjoying them saying what they really thought about each other. :mad:
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I don't think both sides on here want the same thing at all. Hence the anger and surprise when a glimpse of what the other side really thinks comes through.
 
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