Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[belboid]

The interests dictating the continued neoliberal turn don't rely upon 'rules'; they control 'the market'.

Well, duh. But they use those rules to pretend that the market isn't just vested interests, that it is above all that. It was explicit with Greece - 'Yes, we know this won't solve anything, and will only make your economy worse, but they're the rules.'

 

[brogdale]

Well, duh. But they use those rules to pretend that the market isn't just vested interests, that it is above all that. It was explicit with Greece - 'Yes, we know this won't solve anything, and will only make your economy worse, but they're the rules.'

The dream of a Brexited Corbynian socialism is just that. The bond markets will deter any policy they choose.

 

[sihhi]

I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.

There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!

On transfer of undertakings , what could genuinely help here is this article by the IER's EU employment law expert

Industrial Law Journal Volume 42, Issue 4 p. 434-446.
Freedom of Contract as a General Principle of EU Law? Transfers of Undertakings and the Protection of Employer Rights in EU Labour Law
Case C-426/11 Alemo-Herron and others v Parkwood Leisure Ltd

"in the larger context of EU Labour Law and its relationship with national industrial relations systems: despite an explicit provision to the contrary in Article 8 of the Acquired Rights Directive, Member States no longer seem able to lay down standards which are more favourable to employees."

The conclusion "The CJEU’s decision in Alemo-Herron v Parkwood Leisure Ltd is deeply problematic, both when analysed on its own terms and as regards its broader implications for EU labour law. The contradictions brought to the fore culminate in the rather counterintuitive position where ‘no more than a conventional application of ordinary principles of [English] contract law’ would yield significantly better protection for employees than an application of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights."

The EU membership (thus accepting its law) is a way to enforce worse transfer of undertakings than member state. Of course voting out won't improve it either - only asserting workplaces can - but staying in is no better at all.

 

[belboid]

The dream of a Brexited Corbynian socialism is just that. The bond markets will deter any policy they choose.

Of course. But to even by allowed a challenge now is such a rarity, it must be embraced.

 

[sihhi]

I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.

I won't even get that though will I?

It might be closer than you imagine.

 

[bluescreen]

<snip>
i think the turnout will be in the region of 60-70%: and of that the vote will go approximately 55-45 in favour of remain. so there will be a considerable 'don't know'/'abstain'/'fuck you all' vote. but aside from some curmudgeons here - and i say that in the term's most positive sense - no one's ever going to give a flying fuck about the stay at homers.

Surprised you reckon the turnout will be that high. I'll be impressed if it's more than 50% but that's only a hunch: I haven't seen any studies on likely turnout. Do you have particular reasons for the prediction?

 

[stethoscope]

I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.

There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!

Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?

 

[brogdale]

Of course. But to even by allowed a challenge now is such a rarity, it must be embraced.

What has to be embraced?

 

[belboid]

What has to be embraced?

The opening up of the possibility of a challenge

 

[brogdale]

The opening up of the possibility of a challenge

Anti-neoliberalism in one country?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?

I was on a TUPE course with my union last week, a new course for reps due to the current climate. Whilst I don't know as much in employment law as sihhi does (& i've not read the pdf he posted yet, but will), that's one case study. The Tory/Libdem coalition were hell bent on scrapping TUPE but couldn't due to EU directive. Everyone in branch (very knowledgeable organisers) are very worried that an exit from the EU will result in the Tories scrapping TUPE.

 

[brogdale]

Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?

If and when financialised capital wish to withdraw from the concessions enshrined in TUPE, the leavist vermin would be the first to oblige, but they'd be closely followed by the super-state.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

If and when financialised capital wish to withdraw from the concessions enshrined in TUPE, the leavist vermin would be the first to oblige, but they'd be closely followed by the super-state.

And this is it, either fuckin' way, the w/c & their supporting unions will be shat upon from greater heights at some point in time.

The French & Spanish union workers are being battered by their police states for militant strike action, like the EU give's a fuck.

e2a: Workers rights will be dismantelled a damn sight fuckin' quicker out of the EU.

 

[brogdale]

And this is it, either fuckin' way, the w/c & their supporting unions will be shat upon from greater heights at some point in time.

The French & Spanish union workers are being battered by their police states for militant strike action, like the EU give's a fuck.

e2a: Workers rights will be dismantelled a damn sight fuckin' quicker out of the EU.

Really, the super-state does give a fuck; that's why it's happening.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Really, the super-state does give a fuck; that's why it's happening.

I get you. We're fucked either way.

 

[brogdale]

I get you. We're fucked either way.

Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.

Spanish style!

 

[Pickman's model]

Surprised you reckon the turnout will be that high. I'll be impressed if it's more than 50% but that's only a hunch: I haven't seen any studies on likely turnout. Do you have particular reasons for the prediction?

Yes, my gut feeling

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Anti-neoliberalism in one country?

As if socialism in more than one country was a massive success.

The way I see it EU doesn't give a fuck about maintaining workers' rights and it wasn't responsible for us getting them in the first place. Or rights were acquired through the force of organised collective action. But try organising on a European-wide scale and see how far you get with all the different languages and experiences and political cultures. It's not going to happen. European Capital wins every time because the EU is too big and we are too divided.

 

[8ball]

Yes, my gut feeling

I had figured the turnout will be really high cos its on telly and stuff.

Obviously there are more sophisticated ways of analysing such things, but when talking about it with people I seem to find no abstainers.

 

[pocketscience]

... and does not take into account the £148m a day inward investment that being in the EU wins Britain.

You're spouting again.
You, like us all, have no idea what a post brexit uk will look like, so why keep on repeating this baseless assumption?

 

[8ball]

You're spouting again.
You, like us all, have no idea what a post brexit uk will look like, so why keep on repeating this baseless assumption?

A post-Brexit UK will look like a week of hullabaloo and panicked renegotiations, then another vote.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pickman's model Why do you think it will be 55-45 in favour of remain? We have just had a poll showing Brexit in the lead does that not give you pause for concern it may go leave?

Ask a psychologist what will happen, and while most won't give you a prediction, they will tell you that people generally favour the status quo unless things are very bad indeed.

 

[8ball]

Ask a psychologist what will happen, and while most won't give you a prediction, they will tell you that people generally favour the status quo unless things are very bad indeed.

Yep, I'm hoping the bookies are forced to make some serious market moves given the amount of bets being placed on leave.
The waverers will always pussy out of serious change once faced with a ballot paper.

 

[bluescreen]

I had figured the turnout will be really high cos its on telly and stuff.

Obviously there are more sophisticated ways of analysing such things, but when talking about it with people I seem to find no abstainers.

Depends who you talk to. Apart from my FB milieu (who are all for, or - way fewer - anti, and will probably vote) all I can detect from anyone else irl, if not outright hostility to immigration (which somehow seems to be the Brexit usp), is a massive yawn.

 

[8ball]

Depends who you talk to. Apart from my FB milieu (who are all for, or - way fewer - anti, and will probably vote) all I can detect from anyone else irl, if not outright hostility to immigration (which somehow seems to be the Brexit usp), is a massive yawn.

Most of the people I've talked to are in the slightly-smug part of the remain camp, the bit that thinks they are more intelligent than the other lot and the only people who want out are racists. There are a small number in leave camp who avoid talking about it with the smug lot.

I have the entirely boring fairly common left-of-centre opinion that the EU is an elite club ultimately opposed to the aims of most normal people, but now is not the time to let the most boat happy of the ship's bastards into the wheelhouse.

I also resent that this has been foisted upon us as an internal Tory power play, so I'll most likely be spoiling my vote.

If we leave on a one vote majority then everyone has my sincere apologies.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Have you heard anything specific in relation to TUPE? Just that its a UK piece of legislation (based on an EU directive I believe) that's been there for years. Whilst nothing can be put past the Tories, I've not seen anything that TUPE is specifically up for repeal/reform if we left the EU?

Don't think any of the 'leave' people have specifically said which bits of employment law they would scrap.

There have been various speeches making noises about 'EU employment law harming business' and 'EU red tape' and trying to convince people that if we got rid of workers' rights it would be good for workers, or words to that effect.

To which I say "my arse"

Labour have put this out -

"Many of the employment rights working people rely on are guaranteed by EU law. I call on the Leave campaign to say which workers' rights they'd scrap if we left the EU." - (this is something you can sign up to if you feel so inclined - here)

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Don't think any of the 'leave' people have specifically said which bits of employment law they would scrap.

You know the Tory agenda is to attack workers rights, smash unions, & sell off the public sector, whether they're remain or leave. Boris or Dave, take your pick.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

You know the Tory agenda is to attack workers rights, smash unions, & sell off the public sector, whether they're remain or leave. Boris or Dave, take your pick.

but mr cameron said "we are the party of working people"...

 

[gosub]

A post-Brexit UK will look like a week of hullabaloo and panicked renegotiations, then another vote.

Panic yes, out ain't supposed to win. The debate as per we are having this site is referendum mk 2 when services (financial) more tied into single market (un) fortunately same paper as TTIP - trick shot or fuck off
Resolving back to EFTA actually not that hard


Reality Check: Would the single market for services create 800,000 jobs? - BBC News letting the London financial piranhas free reign same bracket as health services