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Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

EU

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Actually it looks like the European Commission have updated their internal guidelines to basically overcome the issue of counter cyclical austerity being imposed because of strict adherence to the fiscal limits of the stability and growth pact, so it may even not need a treaty change for the EU to dump austerity as a reaction to budget deficits in times of deep recession. It's not quite keynesian, but it's a lot closer to it than the interpretation used when destroying the economies of Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal in recent years.

In particular, Article 3 states that “[…] In the case of a severe economic downturn in the euro area or in the Union as a whole, the Council may also decide, on a recommendation from the Commission, to adopt a revised recommendation under Article 126(7) TFEU provided that this does not endanger fiscal sustainability in the medium term.”
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Summary in the case of severe economic downturn The Commission considers that the provisions of the Pact addressing a severe economic downturn in the euro area or in the EU as a whole should be used when necessary.
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In exceptionally bad times, interpreted as an output gap below -4 % or when real GDP contracts, all Member States, irrespective of their debt levels, would be temporarily exempted from making any fiscal effort.
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http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance...mmunication_sgp_flexibility_guidelines_en.pdf
 
Free spirit I agree with a lot of what you say. Austerity policies (and that is what they are, not some inevitable outcome of events) were in modern times mostly reinforced by the 2008 banking crash. For most of my life Britain was under the cosh of austerity as promoted by various Tory governments. In the 1960's there was much talk of Britain importing too many manufactured goods and failing to export enough. However in those days they left out of account the money we earned in the financial sector which was significant. It became clear that this was propaganda.

Austerity is a matter of policy, not some inevitable fact of life.
 
free spirit said:
where do the elements of the EU that have continued to introduce and strengthen protections on workers rights, social and environmental protections fit into this neoliberal dystopia?
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Good fucking God, quotations from meaningless articles outlining pieties on worker's rights as if they had any bearing on anything. Even Irish Labour Party supporters don't think that they can get away with that kind of shit any more. I hadn't realised I was in a discussion with someone living in a parallel universe and have absolutely no intention of acting as your tour guide to this world, so you will have to make to do with this one post explaining the difference between your arse and your elbow.

Lets take your fantasy at face value for a moment: Let's say that the entire neoliberal structure of the EU just stems from the Maastricht Treaty. What process do you think has to be undergone to drastically alter that Treaty? I'll give you a hint: It is exactly as I've outlined, long term, unanimous agreement among simultaneously elected left wing governments in all 27 EU member states over a period of years. Even one country which hasn't been swept along by the power of your imagination can block any such change forever. Of course, it isn't just the Maastricht Treaty that's the problem, but even if it was "Another Europe" would be an impossibility.

At it happens, the EU made the latest of its direct interventions into Irish politics this week. The Irish government has suffered a big setback. A mass movement of non-payment has forced the suspension of water charges, a regressive tax aimed at shifting the burden of taxation onto the lower paid and privatising a public service. The Commission responded by announcing that water charges are mandatory under EU law and that Ireland would have escalating fines levied against it if it doesn't reimpose the charges. This is what the EU exists to do, not to make it more convenient for people to go on holiday to Majorca or to protect worker's rights, you fucking idiot.

As I've said, there are rational arguments to be made for voting Remain, but these are contextual arguments about the current state of British politics. Any positive argument that the EU can be changed into something other than a neoliberal pact between the ruling classes of Europe is one that can only be made by someone who is ignorant, someone who hasn't thought it through or someone who is deliberately lying to people.
 
even the likes of hague, who is an innie are going 'its a clusterfuck but we can't leave cos we'll be double fucked if we do' which is hardly a convincing argument for me.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
Good fucking God, quotations from meaningless articles outlining pieties on worker's rights as if they had any bearing on anything. Even Irish Labour Party supporters don't think that they can get away with that kind of shit any more. I hadn't realised I was in a discussion with someone living in a parallel universe and have absolutely no intention of acting as your tour guide to this world, so you will have to make to do with this one post explaining the difference between your arse and your elbow.
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He's a former LibDem/current Green activist, i.e. exactly the type of wanker that loves the EU and is deluded enough to believe it helps workers (while working for a party that employs scab labour).
 
free spirit said:
The EU's been changed significantly in the past, why is it now unable to change in the future?

Austerity is proving to be such a disastrous policy across Europe that I really can't see that it's not going to get ditched at some point in the next few years, with the emphasis returning to growth and job creation instead.
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Germany's fine with implementing further austerity on the peripherel states, perpetuating their dependence and misery. There's never been such an inbalance of power in the Eu as now, and Germany's pulling away from France fast. So to make change Germany needs to concede it's dominant status which, if you know how the Germans are, you'll know it just ain't going to happen.
 
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I still don't know what I'm going to vote for :( Initially I wanted out, but lately I'm leaning towards staying, but given that I'm still not convinced either way, is abstaining just cowardly? I'm usually ok with making decisions but this one seems so important I'm really feeling the weight of it and can't make my mind up. :oops:

For me, in a nutshell, the main reason for staying is freedom of movement. The main reason for leaving are the imposed austerity measures. I know it's simplistic but I had to distil it to something this basic to give me clarity, and I'd imagine others will too.

Staying or going isn't going to stop neo-liberalist polices, globalisation or the fact that the Tories are in power and might continue to be so for sometime, so in the end that became irrelevant.

edit: workers rights, those have been eroded for sometime now, even being in the EU - it's a general economic system issue, rather than something that will radically change because we are in or out of Europe...
 
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After seeing the latest from the vile official Leave campaign, and hearing the most pathetic drivel from 'left' antis, who apparently know exactly how the future is going to pan out and that there will are no dangers from voting leave whatsoever, I was almost tempted to switch and vote in. Fortunately I then went out with some liberal innies, who came out with a string of catastrophes that would befall Europe if we left (war between NATO members!), so Out it still is
 
belboid said:
After seeing the latest from the vile official Leave campaign, and hearing the most pathetic drivel from 'left' antis, who apparently know exactly how the future is going to pan out and that there will are no dangers from voting leave whatsoever, I was almost tempted to switch and vote in. Fortunately I then went out with some liberal innies, who came out with a string of catastrophes that would befall Europe if we left (war between NATO members!), so Out it still is
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Out of interest, why are you so intent on joining in with this farce?
 
girasol said:
I still don't know what I'm going to vote for :( Initially I wanted out, but lately I'm leaning towards staying, but given that I'm still not convinced either way, is abstaining just cowardly?
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Sorry, but 'yes' - make your bloody mind up!

For me, in a nutshell, the main reason for staying is freedom of movement. The main reason for leaving are the imposed austerity measures. I know it's simplistic but I had to distil it to something this basic to give me clarity, and I'd imagine others will too.
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pretty good balance of options, imo. Thing is, we will be overwhelmingly likely to retain freedom of movement anyway. Even amongst the mainstream leavers there isn't a majority for leaving the single market, which means maintaining the 'four freedoms' at least in the medium term. Long term everything is up for grabs anyway, in or out
 
belboid said:
What's the alternative, abstain? Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support abstaining.
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True that.

Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support remaining, too.

And only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support leaving.
 
belboid said:
What's the alternative, abstain? Only dithering liberals and ultra left frauds support abstaining.
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Not voting is a perfectly clear-headed response if you support/favour neither proposition or outcome.
 
brogdale said:
Not voting is a perfectly clear-headed response if you support/favour neither proposition or outcome.
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Naah, it's an atrocious position, worst of the lot. There's no shroedinger's EU available. One of the two positions will have a greater negative impact upon the international working class. Neither will solve everything. Voting will not give added credence to 'the system' - so fuck it, grit your teeth and make your bloody mind up!
 
belboid said:
Naah, it's an atrocious position, worst of the lot. There's no shroedinger's EU available. One of the two positions will have a greater negative impact upon the international working class. Neither will solve everything. Voting will not give added credence to 'the system' - so fuck it, grit your teeth and make your bloody mind up!
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Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position.

The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.
 
belboid said:
Sorry, but 'yes' - make your bloody mind up!


pretty good balance of options, imo. Thing is, we will be overwhelmingly likely to retain freedom of movement anyway. Even amongst the mainstream leavers there isn't a majority for leaving the single market, which means maintaining the 'four freedoms' at least in the medium term. Long term everything is up for grabs anyway, in or out
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So, you are basically saying 'out'? (sorry haven't read the whole thread, just bits and bobs). Edit: yes, you are saying 'out', just caught up. :)

I think not voting is a perfectly course of action if the options presented are dire. Having said that I've always voted when given the chance, for the least shite option :D But I still can't figure out the least shite option.
 
brogdale said:
Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position.

The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.
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False consciousness? Oh dear. Nonsense. It simply means it's a finely balanced decision. Get off the bloody fence
 
What's the hurry? there's another 3 weeks or so. issues are still being explored and tories are still knifing each other.
 
brogdale said:
Can't agree that not voting is an "atrocious" or "worst" position.

The fact that you appear to be unable to come to a personal decision about which of the alternatives offer the least worst impact upon the working class helps to demonstrate the exercise in false-consciousness for what it is.
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tbh there are negative impacts from every option: and i am not persuaded that advocating 'a plague on both your houses' abstention in this instance really constitutes the least worst impact option.
 
Pickman's model said:
tbh there are negative impacts from every option: and i am not persuaded that advocating 'a plague on both your houses' abstention in this instance really constitutes the least worst impact option.
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But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?

On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.
 
brogdale said:
But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?

On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.
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i think that's what he was saying!
 
I'd quite like the result to be close. Really, really close. So neither side can claim to win and for them to tear each other to pieces fighting over the poll's legitimacy. The more discrepancies, legal challenges and dodgy ballot boxes the better.

I won't even get that though will I?
 
brogdale said:
But, for arguments sake, if knowing that one side will inevitably win, and I have no preference based on an ability to discern differential impacts, what are the possible negative impacts of non-voting?

On the other hand, I can see positive impacts including delegitimising the process.
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you undermine your claim to an ability to discern differential impacts when you have to ask what the possible negative impacts of not voting are.
 
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