Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[nuffsaid]

No, that isn't nuffsaid so you have inside knowledge and are voting out, but what knowledge do you have and why does it persuade you to vote out?

Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.

If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?

If people that think voting to stay is good because they think it's the Left's view then they should remember that Labour were against joining the EEC. - BBC ON THIS DAY | 26 | 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC The choice shouldn't be politicised, it should be based on common sense and as many facts as you can review.

If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?

 

[gosub]

Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.

If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?

If people that think voting to stay is good because they think it's the Left's view then they should remember that Labour were against joining the EEC. - BBC ON THIS DAY | 26 | 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC The choice shouldn't be politicised, it should be based on common sense and as many facts as you can review.

If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?

As a matter of balance have got UK public sector experience as well? Coz they ain't got the best reputation either.

 

[nuffsaid]

As a matter of balance have got UK public sector experience as well? Coz they ain't got the best reputation either.

Yes I've worked for the NHS, Legal Services Commission, local Govt. and HMRC, and yes likewise at many times but we can vote to leave the EU.

 

[William of Walworth]

The above makes you sound far too uncritically Brexit to be worth bothering with to be honest.

I only asked how successful you thought your campaign's leadership was being so far.

How successful has your campaign's leadership been?

I resent the assumption that you're (deliberately? ) making there ...

'Remain' isn't MY campaign

My reason for being even slightly inclined to vote 'Remain' myself is mostly negative -- anti-Brexitism, and even more, scepticism that Brexit will make matters much (any?) better for any leftie/radical/anto-capitalist/Trade Unionist.

I'm fully aware there are plenty of solid criticisms of the EU, of the Remain campaign, and most of all its establishment leaders. I've indicated that I think that earlier up in this thread too.

FWIW to answer your dodgy question, I think both campaigns are going pretty badly for both sides so far.

 

[gosub]

Yes I've worked for the NHS, Legal Services Commission, local Govt. and HMRC, and yes likewise at many times but we can vote to leave the EU.

There was me thinking the not publishing accounts might give scope for even more rotten arrangements.

 

[weltweit]

.. If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?

I depends rather on why they want something. I suspect quite a few want us to stay in to avoid them having to make expensive moves to the continent to remain in the EU if we were to leave.

 

[gosub]

I depends rather on why they want something. I suspect quite a few want us to stay in to avoid them having to make expensive moves to the continent to remain in the EU if we were to leave.

what the Single Market?or the EU?

 

[weltweit]

what the Single Market?or the EU?

Yes, companies like Nissan, Honda, Airbus, Dyson, etc etc will be doing more business on the continent than in the UK. They don't want the risk of tarrif barriers.

 

[gosub]

what are the tariff barriers within the single market?

 

[Obediah Marsh]

The rise of Trump across the water affects this debate. This time next year Europe and the U.S. may well be in a trade war. Being in the EU will cushion Britain from the worst effects of that.

 

[redsquirrel]

Nice to see that the arguments for remaining have been reduced to neo-liberal bullshit.

Don't want to let things stand in the way of free-trade now do we.

 

[weltweit]

what are the tariff barriers within the single market?

There aren't any within it, I was suggesting if we exit the single market there could be some then.

 

[gosub]

There aren't any within it, I was suggesting if we exit the single market there could be some then.

How do you reckon that arrangement could be sorted in the 2 year window?

 

[weltweit]

How do you reckon that arrangement could be sorted in the 2 year window?

Where does this 2 years come from?

 

[laptop]

Nice to see that the arguments for remaining have been reduced to neo-liberal bullshit.

Don't want to let things stand in the way of free-trade now do we.

Er, free trade is not the same as neo-liberalism.

If anything, it's its fig-leaf.

 

[gosub]

Where does this 2 years come from?

Article 50, unless all parties unanimously agree to extend.

 

[Stevlin]

a common usage in the 19th was ejaculate as you describe- an interjection or exclamation. These days its amost solely used to refer to the male emission of semen. Look, I'm not about to argue a colloquialism with you, 'spunked' as in 'wasted with glee' has been in use in this manner for over 20 years or more. Its use in the classic sense of pluck or spirit has actually died out more or less because it refers now to semen. Words change and usages also

I stand corrected Dot - and I agree that words and their meaning do change over time, so I guess I must have led a sheltered life... one does occasionally still see the use of 'spunk' in reference to courage though .......but maybe the books that I read are over 20 years old!! ;0)

 

[weltweit]

Article 50, unless all parties unanimously agree to extend.

If I am honest I haven't given much thought to the negotiations needed if Britain votes out. Also not being a lawyer I don't know about legal changes that may be necessary. I know if we want to retain tariff free access to the market we will have to negotiate and will likely have to abide by the rules and pay to belong, but that is as far as I go.

 

[bi0boy]

Just my experience of how things were run, the vast waste of taxpayers money overall for little or no gain to member states, how people worked and treated their jobs there, the lack of accountability, inefficiencies etc, etc. Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money. I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted. The status quo isn't working and hasn't for some time, Greece was a vanity exercise and the Euro was never going to be equal across vastly differing economies, Germany had to bail it out to keep the project afloat. Do I really need to mention how the migration crisis has been handled? Ultimately each state will look after itself when the chips are down.

If a vote to leave is a jump in the dark so is a vote to stay as no-one knows the level of Federal control that the UK could come under or what the future of the EU will be. There is a window of opportunity to get out now. If you're on the Titanic do you go to the bar, or up on deck to checkout the lifeboat situation?

If people that think voting to stay is good because they think it's the Left's view then they should remember that Labour were against joining the EEC. - BBC ON THIS DAY | 26 | 1975: Labour votes to leave the EEC The choice shouldn't be politicised, it should be based on common sense and as many facts as you can review.

If the majority of Big-businesses want you to do something, do you really think it's for your best interest?

 

[gosub]

If I am honest I haven't given much thought to the negotiations needed if Britain votes out. Also not being a lawyer I don't know about legal changes that may be necessary. I know if we want to retain tariff free access to the market we will have to negotiate and will likely have to abide by the rules and pay to belong, but that is as far as I go.

The staying in EEA through EFTAroute is the only one viable in the time frame where get back our seat on the global tables (that technically barriers to trade set benchmark for everything other than environmental/H&S/national security. ) Immigration lead lot don't like coz freedom of movement pillar of single market) so that might be transitional (heisenburg applies). But seems rational to expect a referendum for a subsequent change. I might listen to your worries about Airbus and Nissan then. As is Honda's got more savvy

 

[coley]

Its worth mentioning that most of the people signing open letters for the "remain campaign" were also petitioning heavily for us to join the Euro, doesn't say a lot for their judgment.

 

[gosub]

Its worth mentioning that most of the people signing open letters for the "remain campaign" were also petitioning heavily for us to join the Euro, doesn't say a lot for their judgment.

Yes but no, there are some cunts, and shit judgement calls. But I have cry Wolf worries for referendum after this whichever type of outer European orbit that's about.

 

[coley]

Yes but no, there are some cunts, and shit judgement calls. But I have cry Wolf worries for referendum after this whichever type of outer European orbit that's about.

Why worry, the Turks are going to be allowed visa free travel around Europe without even bothering to join the EU, our masters know best.

 

[gosub]

Why worry, the Turks are going to be allowed visa free travel around Europe without even bothering to join the EU, our masters know best.

Coz at the end of the story there is a wolf,... At that stage you could be saying well they were wrong about the EUro they stayed when we left the EU, who cares what they say now.... Not that we can't have a shit list Europe's second larget car manufacturers telling it's employees to vote In else they lose influence on EUropean standards. If put that on a shit list if we want to move towards a more transparent and accountable relationship with corporatism.
Or are happy with thinking it's you may build a sizable minority of the cars throughout Europe, but hour efforts to bring sector whatever to heel were not satisfactory consider yourselves spurned. (why else would the multi national producing cars throughout the EU lose influence?)


I say that cos transparency and accountability cuts both ways

 

[mauvais]

Organised crime trawls through all funding application possibilities and makes up bogus claims using well paid lawyers to sift through their controls to milk it for free money.

Ever worked in the UK defence industry?

I was employed on a project that was supposed to have been live in 2005 - I wasn't employed to work on it until 2008 and by 2010 it was canned - millions wasted.

Don't remember Accenture and CfH NHS IT? Or again the defence and national security industry - e.g. Bowman, Nimrod, etc.

I'm sure the EU versions of these disasters are scaled up accordingly - but what you describe is something Britain is perfectly adept and well practiced at doing on its own.

 

[newbie]

.. or Lambeth or Puddleton on the Wold parish council. In fact any public institution with money to disburse is prey for inefficiency, corruption, poor decision making, self interest, bad management and so on. And, of course, major IT project overrun is a category of failure in itself. And I quite like that the corporations are never mentioned in these discussions, like they're somehow immune.

However scale does matter, and the point nuffsaid made is worth reiterating, we actually have the (unique) opportunity to sort-of quit some aspects of the EU project- to deliver a vote of no confidence. If the ref was just about corruption it would be a landslide.

 

[nuffsaid]

Ever worked in the UK defence industry?

Don't remember Accenture and CfH NHS IT? Or again the defence and national security industry - e.g. Bowman, Nimrod, etc.

I'm sure the EU versions of these disasters are scaled up accordingly - but what you describe is something Britain is perfectly adept and well practiced at doing on its own.

Never worked in the defence industry - Sure the UK can and does cock these things up, but as mentioned we can vote to stop paying into the EU's ones. This isn't my only reason to vote leave btw, I was just providing insight into how much your taxes are wasted. The EU gave me a steady job for the worst 2 years after the financial crash - thanks for your contributions on that, I bought a 2-seater convertible when I came back.

 

[gosub]

As we’ve got on to payment for access to the Single Market and concerns over EU and corruption…

Norway’s arrangement as a EEA EFTA member is different, it chips into running the specific cherry picked Agencies its part of, and things like Erasmus and Scientific Research that it wants to participate in, but it doesn’t get billed for access to the Single Market. Well not directly and not through the EU.

About 40% of their costs of being in the Single Market stems from the EEA’s stated aim to reduce social and Economic disparity. But the money doesn’t go to the EU, or rather through the EU. That money, calculated based of the relative size of the members GDP (but not divided by population) is allocated through the Norway and EEA grants scheme and goes specifically to the poorest EU member states. Not one penny gets spent helping a French goose farmer make fois gras. Where it does go can be found here : Frontpage - EEA Grants.

 

[ffsear]

Well that's the OUT campaign ruined then!.....
Trump Says Britain Is Better Off Outside EU

 

[Corax]

We should Bremain - but also nuke France.