Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes
- Thread starter DrRingDing
- Start date
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
You're not delegitimising the process, tho
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
YOUR life may be dull: but don't judge everyone by your own experience
I don't think there is an option on the ballot paper for "whichever side is doing worst in the count" ha.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yup, trying to push exports into New Zealand sufficient to keep Brits in employment compared to the EU market will certainly not be dull! it might feature a lot of unemployment but it won't be dull
I actually decided because I was in a pub yesterday afternoon sat between 2 guys talking about this and the 1 on my right, about 80-odd years old, said everyone should not vote because then the rulers wouldn't know what to do, then the 1 on my left who was much younger pointed out that they wouldn't mind that at all and that I should vote remain. So I decided then.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Go on...
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I asked because I sensed from your earlier post that you regarded all possible actions as having 'negative impacts'. I assumed you meant non-voting as well as R/L? I can't see the 'negative impacts' of not voting...so I wondered what your were thinking of?
weltweit
Well-Known Member
So Johnson Gove and Patel say we could spend the £350m a week on the NHS, will they indeed? First it isn't 350 which does not take into account Thatcher's rebate and does not take into account the money that flows from the EU to the UK, and does not take into account the £148m a day inward investment that being in the EU wins Britain.
Britain already wins from being in the EU, financially, and economically.
And as to Johnson Gove and Patel spending any money saved on the NHS, they are from the party that said no top down reorganisation of the NHS before Andrew Lansley did just exactly that. And their priorities, rather than spending more money on the NHS, was to cut taxes for the rich! They already could be spending more money on the NHS - but they preferred to cut taxes for the rich.
I don't think Johnson Gove and Patel can be trusted on the NHS!
Britain already wins from being in the EU, financially, and economically.
And as to Johnson Gove and Patel spending any money saved on the NHS, they are from the party that said no top down reorganisation of the NHS before Andrew Lansley did just exactly that. And their priorities, rather than spending more money on the NHS, was to cut taxes for the rich! They already could be spending more money on the NHS - but they preferred to cut taxes for the rich.
I don't think Johnson Gove and Patel can be trusted on the NHS!
weltweit
Well-Known Member
If Brexit want continued access to the EU single market after a vote to leave, they will have to agree to the free movement of people which is a cornerstone of the single market. So they can't have their points system for EU migrants if they want to remain in the single market.
And if they don't want continued access to the EU single market, what will happen to the 40% of our exports that currently go into the single market area? So if they don't want continued access to the market they really are swivel eyed little Englander lunatics ..
And if they don't want continued access to the EU single market, what will happen to the 40% of our exports that currently go into the single market area? So if they don't want continued access to the market they really are swivel eyed little Englander lunatics ..
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
tbh this isn't a referendum with winners all round. either we stay in, with "david cameron's" wing of the tory party triumphant; or we leave, with "boris johnson's" wing of the tory party triumphant: at least at first. i don't really see how you can say 'a plague on both your houses' in that is no more progressive third option unless the numbers of respondents to each option are exactly equal: in which case fuck knows what happens, they probably rerun it a couple of weeks later. it's fair enough to abstain if you have no view on the matter: but it is in this instance, i think, wrong to believe stopping at home is going to play in realistic delegitimating role, going to enthuse the masses or achieve anything at all. i refer again to the 1997 referendum on welsh devolution, in which 50.22% of the electorate voted, 50.3% voted in favour of devolution and 49.7 against devolution. the welsh assembly was created and afaik no one ever referred to the low turnout, or to the insignificance of the 'for' majority. take, again, the pcc elections in which a tiny proportion of the electorate participated. it's not like any of the victors from these piddling polls said 'i don't believe i have a mandate'.
i think the turnout will be in the region of 60-70%: and of that the vote will go approximately 55-45 in favour of remain. so there will be a considerable 'don't know'/'abstain'/'fuck you all' vote. but aside from some curmudgeons here - and i say that in the term's most positive sense - no one's ever going to give a flying fuck about the stay at homers.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Pickman's model Why do you think it will be 55-45 in favour of remain? We have just had a poll showing Brexit in the lead does that not give you pause for concern it may go leave?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i thought we'd moved past trusting polls other than the genuine article which will be held on 23 june.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I think you'll find the onus is on you to show your workings...
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Thanks for the reasoned response, and I do see what you're getting at...but the alternative action involves voting for one or other of the neoliberal variants. Neither am I dissuaded from abstention on the basis that my decision will be ignored by the state.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
and - further to your point - brogdale would need to demonstrate a large proportion of the population was deliberately staying away with the intention of undermining the legitimacy of the result. and while i think 30-40% will stay away, i don't believe anyone will seriously suggest that detracts from the verdict of the referendum.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Well, not really...but let me try another way, then? How is your participation in the process any contribution to the delegitimisation of the whole farce?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
that's because it's a neoliberal referendum.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
There would come a point at which such suggestions would be made.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
no there won't. there will come a point at which they may say 'hmm 55-45 isn't really a convincing majority' but that'll be from bad losers
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Quite possibly.
Are you voting, then?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
don't know yet. i'm torn between voting to go, to see what would happen, and voting to stay because i am concerned about what might happen. i realise my vote is unlikely to swing things one way or the other, but i never bothered voting in a referendum before and i might as well give it a go.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
It isn't, nothing is. It is happening. The EU is neoliberalism writ large (as I know you know). It cannot be changed, for the reasons Nigel outlined above. A rejection of the EU is a rejection of that neoliberalism. Eventually. Unless it all turns to shit first.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
I don't think we're miles apart.
Whilst a 'rejection of the EU' might be a rejection of one particular delivery of the neoliberal process, a positive vote for Brexit merely embraces another model of neoliberalism.
One that is objectively more neoliberal.
Which is the entire point for the Brexiteers with power.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
I've finally made my mind up. As a union rep who supports the w/c in the workplace, I'm voting to stay in.
There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!
There's far too much at stake when it comes to workers rights. TUPE as an example. We leave, TUPE goes out the fuckin' window - & what with the big Tory sell off of public services atm, we fuckin' need TUPE!
gosub
~#
I believe it was Chair Mao who first thought : Ryanair, you shit cunts! Close proximity to Peking my arse! How am I going to motivate the lads to walk from here?
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FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Neither will accept it in good grace either way. I think we can take some comfort in that it's polarised the Tory party and given huge support to the anti-Cameron wing in a way that is damaging internally.
I think it would be better on that level if the brexit side lost, because the anti-Cameronites don't have to compromise and won't, they'll still keep attacking; whereas if they won, Cameron would be more likely to make concessions for party unity and the venom would die down a bit.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
I don't think we're that far apart. Of course the UK as currently run is neoliberal. But it isn't enshrined in it's unbreakable rules that it has to be. The EU, by promoting rules over democracy, is wholly unreformable. Whereas the UK is merely not reformable enough.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
The interests dictating the continued neoliberal turn don't rely upon 'rules'; they control 'the market'.
