Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[bluescreen]

redsquirrel
You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit? No, they won't - the rest of the EU will be. (Actually that might be preferable in the circs.) Struggling here to see what a No vote can hope to achieve.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

redsquirrel
You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit? No, they won't - the rest of the EU will be. (Actually that might be preferable in the circs.) Struggling here to see what a No vote can hope to achieve.

This referendum isn't about choosing between individual politicians or factions, it's about choosing between two systems of government. A lot of the campaigning so far, on both the leave and remain side, has been short-sighted in my opinion. We need to ask the question about what is best for us in the next 100 years, not what is best for us in the coming 5.

 

[redsquirrel]

redsquirrel
You sound very cross. Oh, wait: you mean that if we vote Out, BoJo, Foxy, IDS & co will be setting the terms for Brexit?

What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a Brexit policy, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supporters of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker that weltweit and co are.

I can recognise that Mr.Bishie is a comrade while still thinking he's wrong for voting remain. The same doesn't seem to be able to be said for many progressives (vomit) on the Remain side.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

After reading sihhi 's latest post, my position has shifted again! Why give this vote to people who haven't got a fyckin clue & are one trick immigration ponies.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Bloody ponies coming over here and not bothering to learn any new tricks.

 

[Coolfonz]

Bollocks to polls, stick with the bookies

Paddy Power 5/2 Leave!

Brexit Referendum Betting Odds | Oddschecker

I think this is the one to watch. The bookies never get polls wrong. *shakes fist at Ladbrokes*

A points based immigration system will mean state apparatus expanding in order to physically expel illegal French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans overstayers...which would be an interesting development in terms of international relations.

 

[stethoscope]

What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a Brexit policy, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supported of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker than weltweit and co are.

This really, I've frankly had enough discussing any more with liberals as they can't do discussion honestly. I've been trying to explore, and have forwarded my thoughts on the main thread about exit on the basis of pro-worker, pro-left grounds (however much thats a mountain to climb).

There are valid left arguments to stay in, just as there are valid left grounds to leave (the 'choice' is one between a rock and hard place for anyone on the left) amongst a barrage of utter underhand and disingenuous rubbish - liberals engaged in constant reductionism and implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc. Well, the majority of capital (finance and banks, the centre and right of politics, the EU, IMF, etc. and fellow travellers who believe in the market) are more and more desperate to paint a horror story if we left because they are defending neoliberalism.

It's an unhelpful line of argument for any of us really trying to carve out any potential for radical anti-capitalist, pro-socialist possibilities in this mess of liberals making, but one that liberals seem determined to pursue and make the prevailing narrative anyway.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I think this is the one to watch. The bookies never get polls wrong. *shakes fist at Ladbrokes*

A points based immigration system will mean state apparatus expanding in order to physically expel illegal French, Belgians, Dutch, Germans overstayers

Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.

 

[Coolfonz]

Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.

A points based immigration system that has no consequences? Interesting. There is one for people outside the EU at the moment and they do get deported and held in secure facilities.

 

[girasol]

I've made my mind up, finally! If socialism was going to happen, or is going to happen, it will happen whether we are in Europe or not. IN!

 

[Coolfonz]

This really, I've frankly had enough discussing any more with liberals as they can't do discussion honestly. I've been trying to explore, and have forwarded my thoughts on the main thread about exit on the basis of pro-worker, pro-left grounds (however much thats a mountain to climb). There are valid left arguments to stay in, just as there are valid left grounds to leave (the 'choice' is one between a rock and hard place for anyone on the left) amongst a barrage of utter underhand and disingenuous rubbish - liberals engaged in constant reductionism and implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc. Well, the majority of capital (finance and banks, the centre and right of politics, the EU, IMF, etc. and fellow travellers of private markets) are more and more desperate to paint a horror story if we left because they are defending neoliberalism. It's an unhelpful line of argument for any of us really trying to carve out any potential for radical anti-capitalist, pro-socialist possibilities in this mess of liberals making, but one that liberals seem determined to pursue and make the prevailing narrative anyway.

Maybe because the whole referendum and debate is a waste of time, energy and money? Just another example of right wing people fighting each other as their economic system fails? Sea of cunts theory applies.

 

[stethoscope]

I've made my mind up, finally! If socialism was going to happen, or is going to happen, it will happen whether we are in Europe or not. IN!

I can only see the mildest of reformism being possible inside the EU. Member states whilst they stay inside the EU are going to bound by what is a neoliberal super state, run by and for the bourgeoisie, which is based upon opening up of markets and capital. I don't see how any member can pursue socialism by being in (look at Greece, look at French workers right now). Which is not to say it would easy to do so 'out' either but its still got to be more of a possibility.

 

[stethoscope]

Where are the EU then protecting workers rights/labour laws in France?

Hollande attempts to slay France's 'sacred cow' labour laws

Mr Valls has proposed what is, for France, a radical change in employment law, which would align the country with the more flexible hiring and firing rules applied in Germany, Britain and Scandinavian countries. He will hold a series of talks with France’s multiple trades’ union federations this morning in an attempt to head off protests, strikes and a threatened split within the Parti Socialiste.

…

The proposed reform would make “permanent” employment contracts more flexible and make it easier for businesses to lay off workers when they run into economic difficulties. It would also allow employees to vote workplace-by-workplace for flexibility in the application of France’s 35-hour working week.

…

Ms Aubry complains that the rewriting of French employment law in line with “liberal” pro-market dogma is a betrayal of the French “social contract”. Far from the so-called “flexi-security” which applies in Denmark, Sweden and Germany, the proposed changes are all about “flexibility” and would destroy job security, she says.

Of course, most of the reporting of what's happening in France as being 'enacted by the socialist government'. What they're less economical with the truth is mentioning that these reforms are being demanded by the EU…

France to reform ‘overly complex’ labour laws next year, PM says

The government will propose legislation to simplify over-complex labour laws and promote more collective bargaining accords at a sectoral level, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls said on Wednesday (9 September).

France, where unemployment remains stubbornly high at a near record 10%, has promised to speed up structural reforms demanded by its European Union partners in exchange for more leeway on deficit reduction.

The European Commission, International Monetary Fund and Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development have all said that a reform of the labour sector should be the top priority for the eurozone’s second-largest economy

 

[ViolentPanda]

After reading sihhi 's latest post, my position has shifted again! Why give this vote to people who haven't got a fyckin clue & are one trick immigration ponies.

Well, that's the great thing about referenda, Bish. You ask an anodyne question that can be taken to mean different things to different people, but that will secure the political Establishment what it wants. They're asking in order to be able to claim a mandate - whether "in" or "out" - for the next round of shaftings of the working class (because it'll be us that take the brunt of any financial side-effects).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Utter bullshit. There will be no expulsions.

Not of French, Belgians, Dutch or Germans, no - some kind of reciprocal arrangement would be drawn up, no doubt. But of Romanians or Bulgarians? I wouldn't be so sure - we can know for sure that there are people who would want to expel them, and there are people who would see an 'out' vote as a mandate to expel them. For many on the 'out' side, restricting immigration from Eastern Europe is the main point of all this.

 

[gosub]

Not of French, Belgians, Dutch or Germans, no - some kind of reciprocal arrangement would be drawn up, no doubt. But of Romanians or Bulgarians? I wouldn't be so sure - we can know for sure that there are people who would want to expel them, and there are people who would see an 'out' vote as a mandate to expel them. For many on the 'out' side, restricting immigration from Eastern Europe is the main point of all this.

So as well as deal that won't go through Parliament, you'd be expecting a situation where the designated lead negotiator for rEU gets done for discrimination, just so Chris from Sollihull gets what he wants

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So as well as deal that won't go through Parliament, you'd be expecting a situation where the designated lead negotiator for rEU gets done for discrimination, just so Chris from Sollihull gets what he wants

No, I'd be expecting calls to get the headline net immigration figure down. Only way to do that is to restrict movement into the UK from parts of the EU.

 

[gosub]

No, I'd be expecting calls to get the headline net immigration figure down. Only way to do that is to restrict movement into the UK from parts of the EU.

Ignoring the problems of our parliament for a minute, you've read Article 50? No way whoever gets lead negotiator role is going to go back and say "great news guys, only some of you are now second class citizens".

Nonsense on stilts

 

[Dogsauce]

implication of anyone arguing for exit as automatically lining up with Gove, Boris, Farage, 'anti-immigration', etc.

Personally, I'm less worried about the empowerment of Boris (who's main interest is in keeping the EU's increased appetite for the scrutiny of dodgy tax deals away from his hedge fund/trust fund mates - hence the funding of Leave by those types) and more concerned with the likes of Le Pen, Wilders etc. as they're the ones waiting to fill the void of a collapsed European Union, an equivalent left alternative is much further away from taking the helm. The desperate playing of the anti-immigrant card in the last couple of weeks emphasises that Brexit will be celebrated as a victory for the right. It's two fingers to the Turks, not the establishment elite.

(Though in fairness it could be argued that the existence of the EU and associated political disempowerment is what is fuelling far right/nationalists - I don't know, it feels a bit fucked either way)

 

[gosub]

H. M. G. Told you what the 4 options were, that vote leave ignored the doable two doesn't mean HMG will. Vote Leave have explicitly said it would be down to the government

 

[gosub]

Personally, I'm less worried about the empowerment of Boris (who's main interest is in keeping the EU's increased appetite for the scrutiny of dodgy tax deals away from his hedge fund/trust fund mates - hence the funding of Leave by those types) and more concerned with the likes of Le Pen, Wilders etc. as they're the ones waiting to fill the void of a collapsed European Union, an equivalent left alternative is much further away from taking the helm. The desperate playing of the anti-immigrant card in the last couple of weeks emphasises that Brexit will be celebrated as a victory for the right. It's two fingers to the Turks, not the establishment elite.

(Though in fairness it could be argued that the existence of the EU and associated political disempowerment is what is fuelling far right/nationalists - I don't know, it feels a bit fucked either way)

Fair point apart from the Boris bit, Mr Johnson's main interest is Mr Johnson

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Ignoring the problems of our parliament for a minute, you've read Article 50? No way whoever gets lead negotiator role is going to go back and say "great news guys, only some of you are now second class citizens".

Nonsense on stilts

You think an exit from the EU wouldn't be dominated by talk about how to restrict immigration? How it might be done is another question, but that it would be right at the top of political debate is surely not in doubt. Farage and others would ensure it remained there.

 

[gosub]

Must have missed a bye election . Farage isn't even in Parliament. UKIP s immigration spokesman (somebody has to do it I suppose) was bigging up the Norway leave method on World at One on radio 4 on bank holiday Monday

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Must have missed a bye election . Farage isn't even in Parliament. UKIP s immigration spokesman (somebody has to do it I suppose) was bigging up the Norway leave method on World at One on radio 4 on bank holiday Monday

It could well be that a post-EU UK would allow free movement of EU citizens and its net immigration would be unaffected. But there is no guarantee of that. If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous. And the UK has a far more vicious political class than Norway, which has much more of a mixed economy than the UK. The SNP also cited Norway in its rhetoric, but the points of difference between Norway and the UK both politically and socially are so enormous that such comparisons are pretty fatuous.

 

[belboid]

Well, history tells us that capital only makes concessions when it has the fear. We have to be the fear...somehow.

Voting against what they are telling us we have to do would seem like a decent place to start.

 

[weltweit]

What? My point was that both you and weltweit (and your by no means alone) talked about a Brexit policy, equating the people in that list with UKIP, Johnson etc, effectively calling them supporters of anti-immigrant measures. If you can't see that that is out of order then you're the same type of liberal wanker that weltweit and co are.

I don't know why you are having a go at me. Someone asked what Brexit policy on immigration was and as I have heard quite a number of brexiters talk about the Australian points system, I responded with that. I haven't referred to people on that list at all, I know there are many and varied reasons people have which persuade them to vote in or out.

 

[gosub]

It could well be that a post-EU UK would allow free movement of EU citizens and its net immigration would be unaffected. But there is no guarantee of that. If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous. And the UK has a far more vicious political class than Norway, which has much more of a mixed economy than the UK. The SNP also cited Norway in its rhetoric, but the points of difference between Norway and the UK both politically and socially are so enormous that such comparisons are pretty fatuous.

Norway immigration is about 2%higher but opted into Shengen. The politics of Norway irrelevant-it's short hand for an out model.
What I have maintained is remain or leave isn't going to impact on immigration

 

[Obediah Marsh]

If UKIP is bigging up Norway, which has greater immigration from the EU per capita than the UK, then they're being disingenuous.

That party is run by fools or liars, though I don't know which.

 

[hot air baboon]

Ambrose Evans Pritchard's take on the issue ".....accepting the Norwegian option of the European Economic Area (EEA) - a 'soft exit' - as a half-way house until the new order is established....."


Leave camp must accept that Norway model is the only safe way to exit EU

 

[not-bono-ever]

That article is interesting- one point made regards Norways non adoption of many EU regs, which is true- but Norway is fairly unique in the structure of its economy and exports that the rules relate to ( as mentioned previously in other posts)- when was the last time you bought a norgwegian product? um..maybe some crude derivative or a bit of cheese...