Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[Brainaddict]

Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?

I guess I don't have hard evidence I admit - more anecdotal. Like the pro-exit colleague at my work wondering aloud what will happen to the EU citizens in the workplace after an exit, as though expecting some big expulsion. And people giving their reasons to vote for exit as 'Britain is full up'.

I admit I don't have figures for it or anything. At the same time I am astonished, actually sitting here in disbelief, that people on this thread are arguing that exit wouldn't make any difference to our border regime. 'We need to have control of our borders' is half the reason for UKIPs existence, and the Tory movement on this is to a large degree about suppressing UKIP by appeasing those who vote for them. The direction of travel here is very clear. An exit vote will almost certainly mean the current right wing border regime being extended to East European countries, not to totally exclude them but to impose visa controls in order to slow the flow of people. It will be carefully balanced so that businesses can still find cheap workers, while there will also be enough stories of people being chucked out the country to keep most of the UKIP voters happy, so transferring their votes to the Tory party and making UKIP irrelevant. I'm pretty sure this is the plan.

As it happens, I don't think enough people will vote to leave, but the idea we would retain open borders to all EU citizens if we did leave is so unlikely I'd willingly bet money against it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.

I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.

"War is politics by other means", to paraphrase von Clausewitz. That being the case, we can expect the economic warfare inspired by the EU and other large trade blocs to continue wreaking neoliberal havoc and seeding proxy wars on Europe's borders.

Just because world war or Europe-wide war is improbable, that doesn't mean that armed conflicts won't happen, and as resources in EU states get scarcer (there's been sabre-rattling over rates of extraction from the Danube for decades now, for example), then armed conflict short of war becomes more likely.

 

[gosub]

I guess I don't have hard evidence I admit - more anecdotal. Like the pro-exit colleague at my work wondering aloud what will happen to the EU citizens in the workplace after an exit, as though expecting some big expulsion. And people giving their reasons to vote for exit as 'Britain is full up'.

I admit I don't have figures for it or anything. At the same time I am astonished, actually sitting here in disbelief, that people on this thread are arguing that exit wouldn't make any difference to our border regime. 'We need to have control of our borders' is half the reason for UKIPs existence, and the Tory movement on this is to a large degree about suppressing UKIP by appeasing those who vote for them. The direction of travel here is very clear. An exit vote will almost certainly mean the current right wing border regime being extended to East European countries, not to totally exclude them but to impose visa controls in order to slow the flow of people. It will be carefully balanced so that businesses can still find cheap workers, while there will also be enough stories of people being chucked out the country to keep most of the UKIP voters happy, so transferring their votes to the Tory party and making UKIP irrelevant. I'm pretty sure this is the plan.

As it happens, I don't think enough people will vote to leave, but the idea we would retain open borders to all EU citizens if we did leave is so unlikely I'd willingly bet money against it.

Bollocks.
The Government (for it is they that negotiate the new arrangement) isn't going to completely ignore the views of what would still be a significant minority that still favoured membership especially as it would have to get the deal through Parliament (were Leavers are completely outnumbered UKIP has 1 MP ffs) . Leave means still being in the Single Market and a load of people who thought the referendum was about immigration feeling cheated

 

[bimble]

This is reassuring, for what its worth:
"Norway and Switzerland have far higher levels of EU immigration than the UK as a proportion of their populations. These countries do operate under slightly different legal arrangements to the UK when it comes to EU migration. In practice, though, they are fully integrated into the EU’s free movement rules, and the EU has repeatedly made it clear that free movement of people is the price that must be paid for access to the single market.."
EU immigration: Norway and Switzerland*

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Both outcomes shit. Abstain.
If I was forced to choose by a gun to the head it'd be exit. How the left can say the EU is progressive given what they're doing to Greece is appalling. It's the status quo and less democratic than being out.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Plus I don't buy an out vote being equated with being anti immigration. Why would Capital, either British or join hands European, want rid of the free movement of labour? The UKIP supporters see it as this but they're in for a rude awakening to Capital's needs being different to their desires.

 

[bimble]

Plus I don't buy an out vote being equated with being anti immigration. Why would Capital, either British or join hands European, want rid of the free movement of labour? The UKIP supporters see it as this but they're in for a rude awakening to Capital's needs being different to their desires.

Yeah ok, the vast majority of brexiters will probably be disappointed if we do leave and then fail to pull up the drawbridge reclaim Britain for the Brits etc but .. so what / then what?
I still don't understand what people here think will actually get better as a result of leaving. All I can see is the idea that lining up to vote out is somehow a revolutionary act, a way of sticking it to the man, even though the number of people who'll vote that way cos they want to help 'disorganise Capital' is probably about 83, in total.

 

[Humberto]

You really don't read the papers do you? The backlash has already begun, hence recent reductions in benefit entitlements for EU citizens in the UK and the new rule preventing people from bringing their spouse here from overseas unless they earn a middle-class wage. On Brenda's birthday Cameron sneaked out the news that immigration tribunals are going to be made about ten times more expensive.

So far it's only salami-slicing type stuff (although still pretty horrible if you're on the receiving end of it) but the political will and the public support for it is there already. A leave vote could give the people responsible a stronger hand and an opportunity to change policies on a much bigger scale.

Butchers made a good point which I will reiterate, thats worrying about what the Tories will want to do never mind what they will be allowed to do by their paymasters. If anything the ruling class are exploiting foreign labour and foreign nationals. Why would they want or allow that to end? The balance is in their favour.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yeah ok, the vast majority of brexiters will probably be disappointed if we do leave and then fail to pull up the drawbridge reclaim Britain for the Brits etc but .. so what / then what?
I still don't understand what people here think will actually get better as a result of leaving. All I can see is the idea that lining up to vote out is somehow a revolutionary act, a way of sticking it to the man, even though the number of people who'll vote that way cos they want to help 'disorganise Capital' is probably about 83, in total.

It's unpalatable as the Tories are in power and handing them more power is suicidal. However, if someone was in power who you supported, you'd find the EU's undemocratic blocking of policies that you agree with aggravating and would likely be arguing the opposite.

 

[bimble]

if someone was in power who you supported, you'd find the EU's undemocratic blocking of policies that you agree with aggravating and would likely be arguing the opposite.

Seriously? I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.

 

[andysays]

Seriously? I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.

This says more about your (lack of) imagination and knowledge of current and historical events than anything else.

It's true that the mainstream "Leave" campaign has a strong element of British nationalism running through it, but the mainstream "Stay" campaign also has a strong element of "what's best for Britain/Europe" nationalism, although this is dressed up pseudo-neutrally as "what's best for the economy" as if what's best for the capitalist economy is somehow best for everyone in Britain/Europe, regardless of class.

There are also reasons for leaving (rehearsed ad infinitum on various threads) which have nothing to do with nationalism of any sort, so the idea that this issue can all be reduced to nasty British nationalists wanting to get out versus nice internationalists wanting to stay which has permeated much of the debate here is naive and simplistic nonsense.

 

[Greebozz]

Seriously? I can't really imagine this scenario, its never arisen in my lifetime anyway. Look at the political situation in this country, and how it voted in the last election.
Personally I can't imagine wanting to vote out simply because (right or wrong) any campaign that looks like nationalism and smells like nationalism scares the shit out of me. Which may have to do with how my family has no english in it, we're a muddle of nationalities, mostly eastern europeans, so even though I was born here I don't feel remotely British if that makes sense.

That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American. My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.

My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from. I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred. It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity. I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers. I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country. But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open. There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit. Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage. And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.

 

[SpookyFrank]

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred. It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity. I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers. I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country. But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open. There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit. Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage. And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

Lucky the British have never bowled up in anyone else's lands disregarding people's heritage and adventuring for their own benefit. Because if they had, what you're saying here would start to look like a load of ahistorical racist drivel.

I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

BUT I don't want any of them here. They're much more valuable at home where I don't have to look at them.

 

[bimble]

it's a bit like an American saying that they don't feel very Native American.

oh dear.

 

[youngian]

Economy and secuirty are top concerns for the referendum but immigration still figures highly, especially among voters the Tories have lost to UKIP.

There's no evidence. There's a near total lack of solid information on what would happen after a leave vote. What there is is UKIP and the tory right who have for years been talking about migration from EU countries (particularly Poland and the east) as though leaving the EU would resolve this problem.
Why are you only talking about migrants Frank? Because they are the people most likely to be adversely affected.

I've yet to hear a Brexiter complain about the non-EU immigration system to the UK which accounts for up to 70% of migrants to the UK. I assume they are happy with it and would seek to extend the right of employers to scour the globe for cabbage packers at the cheapest rate without any pesky EU red tape like holiday pay and a national living wage. EU freedom of movement is an issue Farage stumbled upon and was crucial to remoulding UKIP from a fringe free market party (enthusiastic about the economic advantages of immigration) to a far right populist party of identity politics.

 

[andysays]

...My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history... ...Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised... ...populations to become outnumbered and out bred. It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity... ...it's all to do with numbers... ...the floodgates open... ...Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage... ...Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere... ...a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base...

This is simply "white genocide" nonsense, nothing more or less

 

[tim]

That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American. My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.

My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from. I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred. It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity. I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers. I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country. But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open. There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit. Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage. And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.

What a pile of racist drivel.

Have you traced your ancestry back on all lines of your family tree? You've got millions of ancestors including plenty who've migrated here. So you'll find yourself a little less pure Aryan/Anglosaxon than you might like to think you are.

I'm impressed, however, that you've managed to conflate a Muslim method of animal slaughter and the Israeli airline, a fusion of religious bigotries

 

[steeplejack]

I'm for Brexit, although there are some very uncomfortable bedfellows in the campaign. If we were voting on personalities I suspect there'd be a 2% turnout and most people would want both sides to lose.

I really think we need to pull back control to the UK to have any chance of re-invigorating democracy at as local a level as possible.

anyone who still has ideas that the EU is anything other than an utterly malign, lying, undemocratic organisation with few if any redeeming features needs to have a word with themselves.

 

[Greebozz]

What a pile of racist drivel.

Have you traced your ancestry back on all lines of your family tree? You've got millions of ancestors including plenty who've migrated here. So you'll find yourself a little less pure Aryan/Anglosaxon than you might like to think you are.

I'm impressed, however, that you've managed to conflate a Muslim method of animal slaughter and the Israeli airline, a fusion of religious bigotries

I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police. If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration. During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.

I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel. If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern. Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'm still Brundecided. :/

 

[gosub]

Economy and secuirty are top concerns for the referendum but immigration still figures highly, especially among voters the Tories have lost to UKIP.

I've yet to hear a Brexiter complain about the non-EU immigration system to the UK which accounts for up to 70% of migrants to the UK. I assume they are happy with it and would seek to extend the right of employers to scour the globe for cabbage packers at the cheapest rate without any pesky EU red tape like holiday pay and a national living wage. EU freedom of movement is an issue Farage stumbled upon and was crucial to remoulding UKIP from a fringe free market party (enthusiastic about the economic advantages of immigration) to a far right populist party of identity politics.

Alright then, firstly EU migration now accounts for over 50% annually. But I'm not happy with the system, the way things are structured non EU immigrants end up as the whipping boy when immigration is mentioned as that's the only area where action can be taken. What are we up to now? £35k (I think), which is restricting a lot more than cabbage pickers. At the first Spectator debate Clegg had the nerve to say non EU weren't discriminated against (I say nerve that man will say anything). I've also heard some horror stories from Chinese mate married to another mate, about the Chinese that she works with that are over here down to quota system (rather than her,by marriage) - the company who has the visas to issue under the quota system effectively using to exploit their chinese staff - don't like it then go home and we can replace you.

But the whole thing isn't about immigration for me, and if I'm really honest I'm pissed off - been after a referendum for 20 years, and having got one, I am beyond unimpressed with the Out campaign, a gnawing doubt that they would quite happily lose but use their large vote to push for subsequent pan EU pressure on immigration -gnawing to the point where I might not vote.

 

[Brainaddict]

That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American. My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.

My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from. I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred. It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity. I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers. I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country. But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open. There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit. Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage. And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.

Your racist meanderings don't even make sense. The large number of muslims in the UK are almost nothing to do with the EU - they largely come from outside the EU. Nor has the UK , while in the EU, even let in many Syrian refugees (shamefully, though I'm sure we won't agree on that).

It's also amazing that you manage to talk about the 'colonisation' of the UK without talking about why it is the UK is such an attractive prospect to people (hint: actual colonisation). It's not just about 'having done wrong' in the past, it's about the real-world consequences of that wrong, that still haunts nearly every country in the world.

I like the way you manage to dismiss the responses to you beforehand as 'potshots'. This isn't a potshot, it's a kick up your arse. You are spouting racist bilge which is massively ignorant and contradictory and that you didn't even have the ability to come up with yourself. You are following someone else's racist script. As much as despising you for your racism, I look down on you for your inability to apply even the slightest critical thinking to what you have been read or told.

 

[Greebozz]

Your racist meanderings don't even make sense. The large number of muslims in the UK are almost nothing to do with the EU - they largely come from outside the EU. Nor has the UK , while in the EU, even let in many Syrian refugees (shamefully, though I'm sure we won't agree on that).

It's also amazing that you manage to talk about the 'colonisation' of the UK without talking about why it is the UK is such an attractive prospect to people (hint: actual colonisation). It's not just about 'having done wrong' in the past, it's about the real-world consequences of that wrong, that still haunts nearly every country in the world.

I like the way you manage to dismiss the responses to you beforehand as 'potshots'. This isn't a potshot, it's a kick up your arse. You are spouting racist bilge which is massively ignorant and contradictory and that you didn't even have the ability to come up with yourself. You are following someone else's racist script. As much as despising you for your racism, I look down on you for your inability to apply even the slightest critical thinking to what you have been read or told.

I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist, it is a slander and a lie. There is nothing more to be said by me.

 

[andysays]

I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police. If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration. During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.

I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel. If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern. Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.

Ha, ha, ha. Posts like this simply reveal you ever more plainly as spouting ever more hysterical bollocks. There's hints and far more than hints of you being a racist bigot as far back as I can remember, and the veil slips further with every clumsy protest that it's simply the "liberal moral police" who are the issue

You're fooling no one, except perhaps yourself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's the whole point really, it's a bit like a an American saying that they don't feel very Native American. My family tree has been traced back 1000 years in the UK I'm very interested in British history, I'm very fond of this country and its heritage and yes I am aware that it has done much wrong in the past.

It's pretty much impossible to trace your ancestry back 1,000 years, unless descended from the aristocratic end of the Norman invaders of 11th century Britain.

My concern is the feeling that Britain is just seen as a place to be colonised, fresh ground to create a little part of the world which is the same as where people came from. I view people has been equally valuable whatever their race heritage religion etc.

But there is an aspect of survival of the fittest, for populations to become outnumbered and out bred.

Oh dear.Another person who thinks that Spencer and Huxley's interpretation of Darwin's idea has any value.
When Darwin spoke of "the strongest" surviving, he wasn't talking about intra-species competition. If you've read "On the Origins of the Species", you'd know that he was talking about how inheritance tends to "weed out" non-useful traits, and how the most flexible species win out, not the most fertile.

It does sadden me if Britain loses its identity. I realise I'm opening up myself to obvious potshots but it's all to do with numbers.

IF it is "all to do with numbers", then once again your have no case. Most statisticians have been noting for decades that worldwide fertility rates are approaching a static rate - by 2050 in most calculations. Declining human fertility across the planet is also a phenomenon that's been being observed for decades.

Your numbers game is merely another justification for prejudice.

I never had any issue whatsoever and love the diversity of people in this country. But it does concern me with Europe when it appears the floodgates open. There's a sense that there's loads of adventurers out for their own benefit. Britain means nothing to them in terms of heritage. And Moslem power on the rise, Hal al meat everywhere, it's a completely alien culture which is an ever-growing power base.

For someone who claims to "love the diversity of people in this country", you voice an awful lot of anti-diversity tropes. Much the same excrement as the likes of the NF, BM and BNP spouted in their more intelligent moments.

I better stop here as ViolentPanda and others are probably already having a fit.

The only thing you produce in me is weary contempt.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm really fed up with the liberal moral police. If you apply the same principles would castigate the Tibetan people for complaining about Chinese immigration. During the Second World War the French would be lectured about their despicable prejudice towards Germans.

I know what I say comes over all wrong but the only other option I have is to shut up about how I feel. If you look through my past posts, there is no hint of me being accused of being a racist or a bigot it's only since recent mass immigration and the endless lunacy of extreme Islam that it's been a concern. Anyone accusing me of being a racist is a complete fucking half wit.

The Chinese invaded Tibet militarily, and then started seeding settlements.To compare that with immigration is the work of a racist moron.

 

[Brainaddict]

I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist, it is a slander and a lie. There is nothing more to be said by me.

You know it's not just you who gets to decide whether you're being racist, right? It's not a matter of your identity. It's a matter of what you do and say and how other people judge that.

If you can explain yourself deliberately mixing up 'European floodgates open' with 'Muslim power on the rise', I'll consider revising my assessment, though I think both ideas are problematic in themselves. But what's the link? Please explain.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I give up, I won't have a conversation with anyone calling me a racist

You'll be wanting to post elsewhere then.

 

[Greebozz]

You'll be wanting to post elsewhere then.

This is not good for my blood pressure, I'm walking away.

 

[Greebozz]

It's pretty much impossible to trace your ancestry back 1,000 years, unless descended from the aristocratic end of the Norman invaders of 11th century Britain.



Oh dear.Another person who thinks that Spencer and Huxley's interpretation of Darwin's idea has any value.
When Darwin spoke of "the strongest" surviving, he wasn't talking about intra-species competition. If you've read "On the Origins of the Species", you'd know that he was talking about how inheritance tends to "weed out" non-useful traits, and how the most flexible species win out, not the most fertile.



IF it is "all to do with numbers", then once again your have no case. Most statisticians have been noting for decades that worldwide fertility rates are approaching a static rate - by 2050 in most calculations. Declining human fertility across the planet is also a phenomenon that's been being observed for decades.

Your numbers game is merely another justification for prejudice.



For someone who claims to "love the diversity of people in this country", you voice an awful lot of anti-diversity tropes. Much the same excrement as the likes of the NF, BM and BNP spouted in their more intelligent moments.



The only thing you produce in me is weary contempt.

PS. Thanks for your analysis of my post, I appreciate you taking the time. I find it too exhausting debating online, if we met in person I'm sure we would have a great discussion in the pub.