Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

[butchersapron]

There's a world of difference between 'supporting the EU', and not wanting to vote for exit at this referendum. Christ, you can argue on some days. This is not one of those days.

There is not other option - and you've argued for the eu. Not a better option. People like you will never make that final hurdle. Backing into the labour party with you.

 

[laptop]

You lied - your posts are a pathetic suggestion that people who disagree are legally wrong. You patina of legal authority went years ago,

Where did I say anything about people being legally wrong?

Please specify what lie I am supposed to have told.

 

[Brainaddict]

So a vote that upsets capital, the UK government, the EU and the Tory party provides a mandate for people to make things worse but a vote which props up the support for those groups doesn't. Sorry I find this absolute nonsense.

I think the degree to which greater controls on Eastern European migration would upset capital is being overstated here by several people. (a) Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Greece will be in the 'Western European' group that will not get controlled. Plenty of labour there. (b) the flow of labour from Eastern Europe will not be stopped. It will just be slightly strangulated.

I also think there are other factors here, like politicians loving an excuse to introduce control systems. I don't subscribe to the idea that the ruling class always does things rationally in the interests of capital. Immigration policy is a case where they often haven't - the controls on non-EU students at the moment are shit for capital as well as the students, but no-one seems to care.

 

[butchersapron]

Can't break with labour. can't break with europe, can't break with the king, can't break with the tsar

We must work with labour, europe, the king, the tsar

 

[butchersapron]

Where did I say anything about people being legally wrong?

Please specify what lie I am supposed to have told.

Certainly - you supported the idea that there were would be mass expulsions if leave won the vote. You know that this is untrue. In fact.

 

[laptop]

Certainly - you supported the idea that there were would be mass expulsions if leave won the vote. You know that this is untrue. In fact.

You haven't read what I posted.

I made a very general prediction. I did not refer to "mass expulsions".

Bluestreak sketched some ways in which it could pan out, which seem plausible to me.

It's quite hard for a prediction to be a lie. The only relevant case would be if I said "Butchers will flounce tomorrow" when you have told me, and I have concealed, that you will not.

Has anyone in a position of power told you that there will be no policy of expelling anyone?

Can we please have the tape/text, pretty please? It would rather affect the campaign.

 

[butchersapron]

You haven't read what I posted.

I made a very general prediction. I did not refer to "mass expulsions".

Bluestreak sketched some ways in which it could pan out, which seem plausible to me.

It's quite hard for a prediction to be a lie. The only relevant case would be if I said "Butchers will flounce tomorrow" when you have told me, and I have concealed, that you will not.

Has anyone in a position of power told you that there will be no policy of expelling anyone?

Can we please have the tape/text, please? It would rather affect the campaign.

It's easy for a prediction to be true. It's easy for them not to be true..

To argue that something that you know not be true is true is a lie. It's not a prediction. That's what you did with this mass expulsion stuff.

 

[J Ed]

FFS. People feeling that their friends and colleagues may be expelled is an issue in the referendum.

If there were a Leave vote and there weren't expulsions, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would be... very disappointed. It's the point for them - whether they're out-and-out racists or "the island's full up" wibblies. Or both, like the late Mr Goldsmith.

The argument that the government would never do it in the event of a Leave vote is very much like people believing that the Tories would never be as nasty as they promised to be, because LibDems. Look where that's got us.

Is it because it is an issue that resonates that it attracts such an attack?

This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.

I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.

 

[laptop]

It's easy for a prediction to be true. It's easy for them not to be true..

To argue that something that you know not be true is true is a lie. It's not a prediction. That's what you did with this mass expulsion stuff.

Eh? You're not making sense.

It seems that you vaguely associated me with an idea - largely of your own construction - that someone had claimed that an exit vote would lead to "mass expulsions".

You didn't like this. It has you deeply rattled. You asserted that I had lied. That was your lie.

 

[laptop]

This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.

I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.

What would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there weren't expulsions, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would NOT be... very disappointed."

 

[butchersapron]

Eh? You're not making sense.

It seems that you vaguely associated me with an idea - largely of your own construction - that someone had claimed that an exit vote would lead to "mass expulsions".

You didn't like this. You asserted that I had lied. That was your lie.

Bollocks - you called me and others racists. Now, what?

 

[butchersapron]

What would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there weren't expulsions, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would NOT be... very disappointed."

I think you've done yourself here.

Clown. And i think you've confirmed why people like me need to keep on the backs of people like you.

 

[laptop]

Bollocks - you called me and others racists. Now, what?

No I didn't. I very clearly wrote about "many or most" of those who voted for exit - those who would be disappointed if there weren't expulsions.

It is clear that you are not among those who would be thus disappointed.

Go to sleep.

 

[J Ed]

What would never happen? Are you saying that "If there were a Leave vote and there weren't expulsions, many, possibly most, of those who voted to leave would NOT be... very disappointed."

I don't really see what that has to do with anything whatsoever but I've seen pro-EU people tell people from France to their faces that they risk being kicked out of the country, this has caused genuine fear and it needs to stop.

 

[J Ed]

Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?

 

[butchersapron]

No I didn't. I very clearly wrote about "many or most" of those who voted for exit - those who would be disappointed if there weren't expulsions.

It is clear that you are not among those who would be thus disappointed.

Go to sleep.

You just did it again.

You smear and refuse to openly say what you mean. It's pretty clear. They're the racists. Don't vote for or be racists.

 

[butchersapron]

Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?

It's not they want it, it's just that it's going to happen. Inevitably. If you vote leave.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The left wing people here supporting the eu were never left wing - just middle class eu progressives. Bottles outside vs cans outside.

Disgusting . Fuck you.

 

[butchersapron]

Disgusting . Fuck you.

The eu the only barrier to Europe-wide war. Go away.

 

[Humberto]

More freedom or less? Does it in your honest opinion help or hinder? That seems to be it. Bremain accusing Brexit of all sorts. That the right would take the the Left to the cleaners supposedly. Others chiming in to confuse what is surely a simple and easy question and choice. As others have said, there's no evidence for the scaremongering. Verify it please, not faulty speculation.

I don't read the papers only the internet so may well have it wrong but immigration does not seem to be the central issue in the political/media discourse in any case. Where is this supposed backlash against immigration going to come from?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The eu the only barrier to Europe-wide war. Go away.

Simplistic mischaracterisation of what others say. Horrible attempt to make this a polarised either a or b. Desperate.

 

[butchersapron]

***it didn't happen - hear me roar oh the injustice***

 

[butchersapron]

it is a or b.

You prefer a but think your shit don't stink.

 

[youngian]

a hundred years or so. If you have to resort to the fear-de-war fetish then you have lost. I mean really, the sort of europe burning situation of huge war is so fantasy land bollocks. Never going to happen. That simply isn't how states play the inter-european games anymore.

I know they don't which is my point. Every European generation has declared peace in our time it's only in the post-war years that has made major European warfare fantasy land bollocks.

 

[weltweit]

I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.

I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Can't break with labour. can't break with europe, can't break with the king, can't break with the tsar

You can't dismantle the apparatus of the state by voting in a referendum. If you could, they wouldn't be holding the referendum in the first place.

This conflation of a leave vote with the poll tax riots, the civil war, the Russian revolution and whatever else is looking increasingly ridiculous. You are voting in an election they set up to serve their own interests. You're not cutting the king's head off. You're not even spitting in his general direction.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I don't read the papers only the internet so may well have it wrong but immigration does not seem to be the central issue in the political/media discourse in any case. Where is this supposed backlash against immigration going to come from?

You really don't read the papers do you? The backlash has already begun, hence recent reductions in benefit entitlements for EU citizens in the UK and the new rule preventing people from bringing their spouse here from overseas unless they earn a middle-class wage. On Brenda's birthday Cameron sneaked out the news that immigration tribunals are going to be made about ten times more expensive.

So far it's only salami-slicing type stuff (although still pretty horrible if you're on the receiving end of it) but the political will and the public support for it is there already. A leave vote could give the people responsible a stronger hand and an opportunity to change policies on a much bigger scale.

 

[gosub]

I am not so sure about war not being an issue today. Just because at the moment France and Germany are allies does not hide the fact that in my father's lifetime there was a world war which started here in Europe. I think the ties between nations in the EU is something that is likely to prevent such a war from breaking out while they exist, and because I think that, I think we too should be in.

I am not saying Britain leaving is going to cause a war, I am saying that the EU is a movement which is likely to prevent war and as such we should be in it.

Coz any elected leader who starts taking their country in a direction the EU doesn't like is removed.


(Wars through expanding towards unfreindly neighbours or through over-integration may still be available)

 

[SpookyFrank]

Also where is the evidence that most or a large minority of the people who want to vote to leave the EU expect there to be mass expulsions of people from EU member states?

There's no evidence. There's a near total lack of solid information on what would happen after a leave vote. What there is is UKIP and the tory right who have for years been talking about migration from EU countries (particularly Poland and the east) as though leaving the EU would resolve this problem. They talk about taking back control of our borders, which while meaningless in itself certainly implies that something will be done about the people who are already here and who have already been labelled as undesirable.

So many of the leave voters will expect, not mass expulsions, but some kind of pressure exerted on certain migrants to return to their countries of origin. Presumably any such pressure would be economic, like a removal of benefit entitlements which forced the working class to leave while allowing the middle class to stay. This will be a filip to unscrupulous employers who are already doing very well by exploiting eastern europeans and who can only benefit from their workers becoming even more disenfranchised.

Why are you only talking about migrants Frank? Because they are the people most likely to be adversely affected.

 

[ViolentPanda]

This would never happen, not in a million years. If expulsions of people from EU member states started then the economy and society would collapse.

I've heard more than a few people repeat this lie and it's irresponsible because it has scared a lot of people for no good reason. Please stop.

Technically expulsions could happen - although only with due process and/or sweeping legislative change - but as you say, economically and socially such expulsions would harm the states far more than the (tenuous) political gains would help, so won't happen.

In terms of individual expulsions, that already happens for a plethora of - fair or unfair - reasons, and given governance by states, always will.