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European border controls have survived the existence of Switzerland outside the big tent, and Switzerland is at the very heart of mainland Europe. The UK is peripheral and in terms of the logistics of controlling movement of people into the continent from the south and east it is largely irrelevant. Nobody travels to Germany from Syria or Eritrea via the Orkneys. Fortress Europe will continue with or without us. To suggest anything else is disingenuous in the extreme.
 
SpookyFrank said:
European border controls have survived the existence of Switzerland outside the big tent, and Switzerland is at the very heart of mainland Europe. The UK is peripheral and in terms of the logistics of controlling movement of people into the continent from the south and east it is largely irrelevant. Nobody travels to Germany from Syria or Eritrea via the Orkneys. Fortress Europe will continue with or without us. To suggest anything else is disingenuous in the extreme.
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Excellent. Tell that tale next time that you're in calais. There has been a real change over the last 30 years. It's real and it's driven by the EU.
 
So tonight we have

1)vote eu to smash the anti-immigration plans of the eu (because i like immigration) and

2)because the eu won't expel people who aren't being expelled.
 
butchersapron said:
Excellent. Tell that tale next time that you're in calais. There has been a real change over the last 30 years. It's real and it's driven by the EU.
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And the EU minus Britain will stop all this nasty behviour? They'll take a brexit vote as a clear statement of moral outrage at the treatment of migrants and, in their shame, proceed to start tearing down fences left right and centre?

Even if the EU disintegrated altogther, the end result would be two dozen fortresses instead of one. Ask yourself which of those two scenarios you'd rather find yourself in, if you were a migrant coming to Europe?
 
butchersapron said:
So tonight we have

1)vote eu to smash the anti-immigration plans of the eu (because i like immigration) and

2)because the eu won't expel people who aren't being expelled.
Click to expand...

There is no 'vote EU' on the ballot. There is an option for the UK to stay in the EU given that it already exists and will continue to do so no matter what we do. This is a pretty clear distinction which you seem to be ignoring on purpose.
 
SpookyFrank said:
And the EU minus Britain will stop all this nasty behviour? They'll take a brexit vote as a clear statement of moral outrage at the treatment of migrants and, in their shame, proceed to start tearing down fences left right and centre?

Even if the EU disintegrated altogther, the end result would be two dozen fortresses instead of one. Ask yourself which of those two scenarios you'd rather find yourself in, if you were a migrant coming to Europe?
Click to expand...
The EU isn't going to immediately fall apart. They'll find another way to try to do fortress europe. That aim will be significantly hampered by the fatal blow deal by the UK exit. The hard concentration on the needs of refugees rather than anyone else - why?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
If the xenophobes get the upper hand shit will happen. Stop deferring to abstracts like 'capital'. This is about real people.
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Capital isn't split though. The principle party of capital is split, pretty much fifty fifty, but capital himself at home in his volcano lair knows exactly what he's doing. He just hasn't deigned to inform his tory minions.
 
SpookyFrank said:
There is no 'vote EU' on the ballot. There is an option for the UK to stay in the EU given that it already exists and will continue to do so no matter what we do. This is a pretty clear distinction which you seem to be ignoring on purpose.
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ER no, vote eu = vote to stay. A vote for the eu.

But let me guess, you'll commit to fighting it from within? Here you'll post a list of successful attempts.
 
I'd rather be in a position to help those people coming in down on their druthers in a way I hope I never have to experience and I've not had shit easy. I don't see continued EU membership as conducive to that. We literally saw an elected left government bullied into compliance by an unelected set of powers. How is this not sinking in? People will do as they can. But in the electoral game the EU has thrice shown willing to shit on democratic principles. Why keep it with them. The workers rights argument is still annoying me as well. People fought and died to secure rights and to imagine they won't again is to woefully misunderstand anger. Oh noes the 48 hour working week. Which all agencies pressure into waiving anyway.
 
Vote EU to stop my friends false fears an all that and being nasty and like nasty people and not being like nasty and the nasty people.
 
SpookyFrank said:
Bearing in mind that a leave vote will strengthen the hand of the most right wing tories and all but hand the keys to the kingdom to one B. Johnson.
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I'm so glad we made the poll tax revolt about how it would play out in the tory or labour party. Their internal battles are ded something to concentrate on. Not any independent politics.
 
butchersapron said:
No. And if he is - how mcuh does he represent?
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Well non technicaly at the moment. But until recently he was the chief executive of one of the world's largest Banks. Which is a pretty major bit of capital.

Anyway to return to my original point. Those who run the system, don't always make the right choice regarding what is in the best interest of capital. Geoghegan is an example of that, as from the perspective of his class position he is wrong to want to leave the EU.
 
butchersapron said:
Vote EU to stop my friends false fears an all that and being nasty and like nasty people and not being like nasty and the nasty people.
Click to expand...

It's quicker if you just mash the keyboard at random with your fists. Rest assured the effect will be the same.
 
emanymton said:
Well non technicaly at the moment. But until recently he was the chief executive of one of the world's largest Banks. Which is a pretty major bit of capital.

Anyway to return to my original point. Those who run the system, don't always make the right choice regarding what is in the best interest of capital. Geoghegan is an example of that, as from the perspective of his class position he is wrong to want to leave the EU.
Click to expand...
You need to work out what is 'wrong' here' or something. Or why a non-representative individual means something.
 
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