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Brexit or Bremain - Urban votes

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Of course there'll be plenty of snidey 'look at the company you keep' remarks from people who should know better and we can expect increasingly hysterical meeja assault and panic-button pushing statements of doom from the innie politicos but really, there simply hasn't been a convincing left in case. I've seen attempts and they aren't much more than labour style 'but the tories' stuff, prophecies of financial doom and the least convincing one- the EU is what keeps us from ww3

I think a more convincing argument for staying in (which I lean towards right now, without much conviction) goes like this: we are under the jackboot of neo-lib hegemony whether we stay or go, so most of the claims about what will or won't happen if we're in and out don't amount to much. The battles we will need to fight will be pretty much the same - most of the claimed differences in political battles are probably not that substantial. But the effect that leaving will have on actual people will be very real. Millions of people will potentially have their freedom of movement inhibited, may even lose their right to stay in the UK (or if they are UKian, their right to stay elsewhere). This could affect a lot of people I know. So even though I know business also wants free movement for cheap labour, I also know the people who actually move, who have their own will and desires etc. And I'm not feeling very happy about them getting fucked over. And one of the problems with the left exit stance is that the right will be in control of any exit, so the lexiters won't get to protect those people. Whatever the motivations of those voting to leave, those who want to move (or stay) will be fucked over.
 
Can anyone back up this mass expulsion scenario. The one outlined above.
No, it's not about mass expulsion. I realise that economically none of the countries involved can countenance that, least of all the UK. What's more likely is that Eastern Europeans could start being regulated under visas, and may have time limits on how long they can stay (leading to countermeasures by European states). So a mass expulsion isn't likely, but a controlled expulsion is quite possible I think.
 
No, it's not about mass expulsion. I realise that economically none of the countries involved can countenance that, least of all the UK. What's more likely is that Eastern Europeans could start being regulated under visas, and may have time limits on how long they can stay (leading to countermeasures by European states). So a mass expulsion isn't likely, but a controlled expulsion is quite possible I think.
If it's not why are you using the fear of that to agitate for staying in the EU?
 
Can anyone back up this mass expulsion scenario. The one outlined above.
We have a couple of women form China working in our office a few years ago. Despite having been there a couple of years they had to re-apply for their visas and where unsuccessful, which meant they had to go back to China. We also have a couple of Polish women, I wounder if they may find themselves in a similar situation a few years down the line if we did leave. Although I don't think we will leave, regardless of the referendum result.
 
We have a couple of women form China working in our office a few years ago. Despite having been there a couple of years they had to re-apply for their visas and where unsuccessful, which meant they had to go back to China. We also have a couple of Polish women, I wounder if they may find themselves in a similar situation a few years down the line if we did leave. Although I don't think we will leave, regardless of the referendum result.
A similar situation to what? A made up story about being expelled? I'm not sure the EU can regulate whatever the situation is with china.
 
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I know quite a few continentals living and working in the UK. One of them has become a UK citizen, but I do wonder if the rest might be asked to "go home" if leave wins.
 
A similar situation to what? A made up story about being expelled? I'm not sure the EU can regulate whatever the situation is with china,
Are you saying I made it up, I can't tell? The point is that while talk of sudden mass expulsions is clearly ridiculous, currently non-EU citizens do suddenly find themselves forced to leave. I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned about EU citizens facing the same issues it if the UK was to leave. If I was from another EU country planning to stay in the UK I would be worried about it. Especially considering the increasingly hostile immigration rules.

To give another example, a friend of a friend was from Belarus and both her and her husband were living in the UK. At one point she was told she had to leave because she didn't earn enough, but her husband was allowed to remain. She was able to get back in a few months later, but is was still a shit situation.

Now I don't think we will leave and even if we do we will probably end up with a treaty not so different from what is in place now. But I don't think these concerns should just be dissmessed out of hand. People will genuinely be worrying that their families may get ripped about.

Eta- I hover between leave and abstain, no why will I vote stay.
 
Are you saying I made it up, I can't tell? The point is that while talk of sudden mass expulsions is clearly ridiculous, currently non-EU citizens do suddenly find themselves forced to leave.

I'm stopping this here. Is it true? It's not is it? So why are you saying it and using it to bolster pro-eu views? Or is it a massive load of not fucking true?
 
I cannot foresee a situation when in the event of leave winning the immigration situation will be much different. The EU will still exist and will negotiate as one so someone from Latvia will have the same rights as someone from France. Any trade agreement with the EU would include something which will amount to free movement of people.

For me the whole immigration / borders thing is a massive red herring and its more then annoying that's it playing such a big part in the debate.
 
Tel me what you think is true about your claim that NON EU citizens will be forced to leave the UK if the exit vote wins.
I haven't claimed that?
I have claimed that currently non-EU workers sometimes get their visa application refused when their current one expires, and as a result have to leave the country, or stay illegally. Are you saying this never happens?

I therefore don't think it is unreasonable to worry that the same will apply to EU workers if the UK was to leave the EU.
 
It won't. The post-brexit negotiations will include a clause for movement of people.
I agree, I think so as well. But I can see why people may worry about it. Plus there is always a chance that it may be changed at some point in the future.
 
I haven't claimed that?
I have claimed that currently non-EU workers sometimes get their visa application refused when their current one expires, and as a result have to leave the country, or stay illegally. Are you saying this never happens?

I therefore don't think it is unreasonable to worry that the same will apply to EU workers if the UK was to leave the EU.
I'm sorry - i think we have this toatlly crossed. It's expelling non-eu workers right now. Today. It's the eu that set up fortress europe. It's no one else. The eu is the hardest face of anti-immigration going. But you know, got some skills..,
 
I agree, I think so as well. But I can see why people may worry about it. Plus there is always a chance that it may be changed at some point in the future.
There are no people in their calculations - there are labour powers. And the calculation will never be yours.
 
I'm sorry - i think we have this toatlly crossed. It's the expelling non-eu workers right now. Today. It's the wu that set up fortress europe. It's no one else. The eu is the hardest face of anti-immigration going. But you know, got some skills..
I'm not sure where you are comming from. The EU is rabidly anti-immigration from outside the EU. Yes it is. Well from certain areas of the world's anyway. I don't see how that affects the current discussion?
 
I'm not sure where you are comming from. The EU is rabidly anti-immigration from outside the EU. Yes it is. Well from certain areas of the world's anyway. I don't see how that affects the current discussion?
The workers that capital needed in the UK before are not going to be expelled.
 
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