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Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry
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The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I'd agree with could be shocking , obviously nobody is going anywhere for the next three months or so, but I'd like to see either an agreement with the EU or more likely individual EU states that waves/reduce any barriers when it is possible.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think there is something in this (in the sense not so much as "luxury commodity" so much as "elite pursuit"). I don't see how making things harder for people to make and share music helps in any way, though. It's just going to make it more the case than ever that the new music we get is either heavily manufactured anodyne crap, or Spitalfields trustafarians with family contacts.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Don't know if you are a member but heres the MU advice
Everything You Need to Know When Touring Abroad
Guidance for touring bands, orchestras and solo musicians.
Sometimes I wanna play music on my own at home, and that is great (I was lucky enough to learn, but nearly everyone can do something mojo pixy you are right). But sometimes I want to hear incredible stuff that I could never imagine creating, it is inspiring.
I am all in favour of music rebecoming more of a folk/active/local thing, as opposed to a passive consumption of a business product. And I also agree that I've heard a lot of people saying pro-EU stuff that I absolutely disagree with. But it's just a fact that a lot of specific things you had said in this thread have just been factually untrue/totally ridiculous mojo pixy, so I am not going to agree with you on those things just because I might agree with you on other things.
LOVE
I am all in favour of music rebecoming more of a folk/active/local thing, as opposed to a passive consumption of a business product. And I also agree that I've heard a lot of people saying pro-EU stuff that I absolutely disagree with. But it's just a fact that a lot of specific things you had said in this thread have just been factually untrue/totally ridiculous mojo pixy, so I am not going to agree with you on those things just because I might agree with you on other things.
LOVE
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Possibly. But really that's just another reason to DIY.
I used commodity to describe not music we make but music we buy. I have some sympathy with music production being an elite thing, I mean, hungry people don't generally record music, and staying up all night to record after a 12-hour shift at work is .. difficult. Possibly even unlikely. But music as a form of expression is not elitist, if I think of eg. blues and folk music. Music that needs 10k worth of equipment to produce is not quite the same though, IMO - that is more of an elite pursuit, and the end product is a luxury commodity, enjoyed in the main by people with some disposable income.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Fair enough. I'm not sure I've posted anything factually untrue, because I've kept to opinions, or tried to. A lot of the replies to my posts have taken issue with words I never posted, and some of what I've posted has definitely been tongue-in-cheek. But I'm enjoying myself so far. Might even write a song about it
Edit to add - I agree 100% with the bit I've bolded. A lot of the incredible music I want to hear is by people who are dead already so this problem doesn't affect them.
Thing is the DIY gig scene is sooo much more developed in mainland europe than here. That is what I found inspiring about going there.. Organised squats covered in dog shit but with proper gigs with proper sound where bands def get paid rather than promoters running of with money/getting robbed outside by gangs. punk youth clubs with screen printing workshops and stuff, but again properly organised, by the youth themselves, and again guaranteed payments. Those spaces just don't exist in the UK (well they are extreemely rare and always collapse within a couple years. It is possible, I am hopeful they might develop.... but not sure why they would at the moment tbh.
edit: 12 bar in bradford may be an exception? DIY Space in London def closed. Wharf Chambers in Leeds? But in eg germany there is somewhere like that in every vaguely sized town and ti means kids can pool resources
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I was going to add that yes, between 2000ish and 2012 (when I quit London and playing live) there were dozens and dozens of brilliant squats that were almost constantly full of music in some state or other of organization and collectivity. Sadly as you say, most were done after a year or two, but the networks persist beyond one premises or another. Anyway, not the issue. The bands that seem most put out about this aren't as far as I can tell the bands who generally play at squats.
I actually literally just joined a diy punk uk facebook group and there are way more promoters in littler towns than I thought tbh. It would be AMAZING if it became possible for uk bands to tour the UK properly (ie not just "london manchester glasgow" like what most bands mean by "uk tour"), and play the smaller places. It would mean promoters need to give at least food, accommodation, a couple beers and enough cash to cover petrol and and a fraction of van hire.... but maybe that could happen, and it would help the country in a lot more ways than just music.
but europe is also so near that no way that shoudl be cut off to all but the biggest bands. that def needs to be sorted, and I am fairly hopeful it will be by the time touring becomes possible but i dunno.
also I am not a professional so I am coming at it from that angle. If it was a living for me, I would be far far more stressed about it.
but europe is also so near that no way that shoudl be cut off to all but the biggest bands. that def needs to be sorted, and I am fairly hopeful it will be by the time touring becomes possible but i dunno.
also I am not a professional so I am coming at it from that angle. If it was a living for me, I would be far far more stressed about it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's what a lot of the people touring Europe are doing, no, taking part in a wider DIY network? DIY doesn't have to be limited inside national borders.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Absolutely, which is why I find it encouraging that there are nearly 170 other countries outside the EU with us.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Sure. But practically speaking, all the easiest countries to get to are in the EU, or at least in the common market. The nearest non-EU, non-EEA country to the UK is what? Serbia, I guess, but not for much longer as it will be in the EU soon enough.
Travelling for gigs etc if you're Serbian can be fucking shit, btw. That will be one of the benefits to Serbians of joining the EU.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Self-imposed isolation. It's utterly bonkers. Culture thrives on interaction.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
One band I was in planned out a tour of ''all the Bs'' .. the plan was Brighton, Bournemouth, Bristol, Bath, Birmingham, Blackpool, Bradford and Bolton. We managed a few in summer 2009, but sadly we were losing so much money we didn't get past Birmingham.
I'd add that from the look of things, Europe isn't going to be out of reach exactly, it'll (it may) just cost a bit more to tour there. But at the moment it's hard to know what's fucked because of Brexit and what's fucked because of Covid, so I think there may be some premature weeping going on tbh.
bimble
floofy
Phew thats ok then. What is it you think everyone's been worrying about - you think people confusedly thought we were all banned from setting foot in Europe ever again or that the continent had drifted off across the sea and become out of reach that way? Reassuring stuff tho thanks.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
From the emotional outpourings on this issue it certainly looks that way. But no, turns out it is just extra fees.
I'm beginning to wonder if snarky sarcastic nihilism is necessarily as funny or interesting as I used to think it was.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Just extra fees?
Just.
For people who are only just managing to finance their tours.
Just.
For people who are only just managing to finance their tours.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
It's not a pay cut. It's just extra fees.
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
Not may, will. Plus the added time (i.e. expense) for all the paperwork. It is going to screw a lot of people and I really can't see why you're being so fucking obtuse over this.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
I'm not being obtuse, I'm actually looking at how some people might salvage something from it. Playing more shows in the UK or (haha yeah) busking might not work for everyone, but ffs I've seen a string quartet busking, I've seen groups of drummers busking with dancers, I've seen a balkan jazz trio busking, I've seen a harp player, clarinet players, flute players, a barbershop quartet, and someone playing beats through an iPad and amp while two friends threw fire about. Oh, and cunts playing guitars. Then there are online shows, collaborations, Patreon, Kickstarter. Or there are fuckloads of other ways to make a living, they just don't come with the warm glow of love from a roomful of strangers.
The negativity and sense of entitlement (oh woah woah not US, we didn't even want this!) is pretty lame tbh.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm not a musician. I don't even have any particular plans to go to EU countries except for a few days here and there. But I'm bitter about losing free movement and the right to live and work across Europe. I'm bitter about that for the people who will lose out. For the narrowing of possibilities for all of us, real or purely dreams, that it entails. For the Europeans who want to come here. For the sheer fucking pointlessness of the new borders and the new bureaucracy.
It is a backward step in every regard, notwithstanding any other issues there may be with the EU. And it wasn't an inevitable part of Brexit, as it wasn't on the ballot paper. Saying 'we never wanted this' seems totally fair enough to me.
It is a backward step in every regard, notwithstanding any other issues there may be with the EU. And it wasn't an inevitable part of Brexit, as it wasn't on the ballot paper. Saying 'we never wanted this' seems totally fair enough to me.
editor
hiraethified
I get paid a wage from the band and all fares and hotels and meals are paid for me, so it's not something I'm really concerned with, to be honest.Don't know if you are a member but heres the MU advice
Everything You Need to Know When Touring Abroad
Guidance for touring bands, orchestras and solo musicians.musiciansunion.org.uk
editor
hiraethified
I'm struggling to think of many small bands that need "10k worth of equipment" to go onstage with to produce this luxury commodity you keep going on about . Perhaps you could give some examples?
That said it's not unusual for a relatively poor self employed tradesperson to have waaaaay over that worth of equipment to do their job properly. Equipment that they have bought over time, or second hand.
Are they all elitist too?
editor
hiraethified
Pretty sure bands who used to play squats and play Europe would be quite put out too, you know.
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
PA + Monitors + mixing desk
Instruments + Amplification + all mics + cables
Lights + hefty electricity supply
10k easily, yes.
I sense goalposts about to move....
mojo pixy
...שלא נמצא בשמאל
Yes, there are some, and they may. If anyone from such a band wants to post here I'll be interested to read what they have to say. Even if it's You're a prick shut up. Like I've never heard that before
editor
hiraethified
You've just described the venue's costs. I thought you were talking about small bands and such bands very, very rarely are expected to bring along an entire PA system to every gig. And 10k split between four or five people is hardly a fortune anyway. It's the price of a car.
I am quite amazed by your persistence here. You've never toured Europe, and as a result you know very little/nothing about how such tours work and you don't understand why touring is integral to merchandise sales, yet here you are shouting over people who do have such experience.
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