Brexit and musicians/performers and the touring industry: news, updates and experiences

[rutabowa]

That's not fair at all. I didn't see the later tweet.

I hadn't seen any tweet until you posted it; but when I read it my first thought was "it seems unlikely that everyone is suddenly being forced to declare and pay fees on laptops, as a) that doesn't happen ANYWHERE else in the world and b) so many people travel with laptops that it would have been HUGE news ready". Then I just took 10 seconds to check the original twitter account.

It shows the problem with using random twitter accounts as evidence: they can easily get stuff wrong, EITHER from the person just getting the wrong end of the stick, OR because their bias leads them to express the story in a slightly distorted way... or a combination. Either way it clouds the already-complicated issues.

I get that you are upset and rightly so, there is a lot to be angry at. But just bombarding the thread with twitter stories without any discrimination (like e.g. several of them in this thread already are just based on the exact same single twitter quote, just reported by different outlets), well it is not good for anyone imo. Tbh the relentless negativity makes me personally feel exhausted. I can't believe that anyone thrives on it.

I never spoke to that tour guy yesterday, he is calling today now. Trust me he is absolutely no fan of brexit. But there will be some good practical advice which might or might not be relevant to specific situations but is definitely based on reality. It is NOT because I was a fan of brexit. It is just my way of dealing with the situation, mentally and practically; taking it piece by piece and trying to find fixes or alternatives. Rather than just seeing a totally overwhelming mass of doom. I'll leave thread after thaf, as it is a pretty thankless task.

 

[editor]

It shows the problem with using random twitter accounts as evidence: they can easily get stuff wrong, EITHER from the person just getting the wrong end of the stick, OR because their bias leads them to express the story in a slightly distorted way... or a combination. Either way it clouds the already-complicated issues.

I get that you are upset and rightly so, there is a lot to be angry at. But just bombarding the thread with twitter stories without any discrimination (like e.g. several of them in this thread already are just based on the exact same single twitter quote, just reported by different outlets), well it is not good for anyone imo. Tbh the relentless negativity makes me personally feel exhausted. I can't believe that anyone thrives on it.

I never spoke to that tour guy yesterday, he is calling today now. Trust me he is absolutely no fan of brexit. But there will be some good practical advice which might or might not be relevant to specific situations but is definitely based on reality. It is NOT because I was a fan of brexit. It is just my way of dealing with the situation, mentally and practically; taking it piece by piece and trying to find fixes or alternatives. Rather than just seeing a totally overwhelming mass of doom. I'll leave thread after thaf, as it is a pretty thankless task.

It also shows the sheer confusion that Brexit is causing, and the fact that the new rules seem to be applied almost randomly. Some bands can get through customs in an extra hour or two while others
find themselves stuck for ages. But apart from the visas, the carnets and all the other time consuming paperwork, the matter of merch is a colossal pain in the arse and likely to make many tours unviable for small bands.

 

[editor]

Here's a view from the classical world: doomy with some hope at the end -

In a monstrous conspiracy of fate British musicians, acknowledged globally as the finest in the world, have never had it so bad thanks to Brexit, Covid and the cost of living crisis. Employment among professional musicians fell by 35% in 2020 alone.

The sector’s earnings dropped by £2.7bn (£5.8bn to £3.1bn) reflecting lost partnership investment and fundraising, and in August 2020 the Association of British Orchestras reckoned orchestras were losing £6m a month. Nearly a quarter of musicians are considering changing career say the Musicians’ Union and the Incorporated Society of Musicians, 77% expect their earnings to plummet and 42% are thinking of moving abroad. On top of everything else, 73% of our freelance musicians, and three-quarters of them are freelance, mostly uncovered by government schemes, have developed mental health issues.

Touring to Europe has been vital for British ensembles and performers, and the quality of their work has always made them popular in Continental venues, but while that aspect of musical life is a shitstorm for orchestras as organisations and musicians as individuals at the moment, the ludicrous red tape that has been wrapped around travelling and transporting instruments, not to mention the extra fees, the visas and work permits that clog up the works that were running so smoothly until 18 months ago, there is a brighter side peeping over the louring horizon.

The view across the English Channel is not the only outlook for our music. With no live music for the best part of two years, orchestras and venues at home had been close to collapse and only the government’s £2bn culture recovery fund keeping them alive. Yet this week the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra published a report with an unexpectedly hopeful title, From Restriction to Recovery: public engagement with orchestral music during a critical year. https://www.rpo.co.uk/images/News-Press/March_2022_report.pdf

Back to the music

us18.campaign-archive.com

 

[Maltin]

I hadn't seen any tweet until you posted it; but when I read it my first thought was "it seems unlikely that everyone is suddenly being forced to declare and pay fees on laptops, as a) that doesn't happen ANYWHERE else in the world and b) so many people travel with laptops that it would have been HUGE news ready". Then I just took 10 seconds to check the original twitter account.

It shows the problem with using random twitter accounts as evidence: they can easily get stuff wrong, EITHER from the person just getting the wrong end of the stick, OR because their bias leads them to express the story in a slightly distorted way... or a combination. Either way it clouds the already-complicated issues.

I get that you are upset and rightly so, there is a lot to be angry at. But just bombarding the thread with twitter stories without any discrimination (like e.g. several of them in this thread already are just based on the exact same single twitter quote, just reported by different outlets), well it is not good for anyone imo. Tbh the relentless negativity makes me personally feel exhausted. I can't believe that anyone thrives on it.

I never spoke to that tour guy yesterday, he is calling today now. Trust me he is absolutely no fan of brexit. But there will be some good practical advice which might or might not be relevant to specific situations but is definitely based on reality. It is NOT because I was a fan of brexit. It is just my way of dealing with the situation, mentally and practically; taking it piece by piece and trying to find fixes or alternatives. Rather than just seeing a totally overwhelming mass of doom. I'll leave thread after thaf, as it is a pretty thankless task.

It seems a bit unfair to suggest he got the wrong end of the stick. the guy got told this by HMRC. Now it is possible that the people at HMRC have no clue what the rules are either. He clarified that he was told by someone else at HMRC that the rules were different when flying so it is possible that the initial advice is still valid when not flying.

A massive change was rushed through during a pandemic without proper planning by an incompetent government and unsurprisingly it leads to confusion.

 

[rutabowa]

It seems a bit unfair to suggest he got the wrong end of the stick. the guy got told this by HMRC. Now it is possible that the people at HMRC have no clue what the rules are either. He clarified that he was told by someone else at HMRC that the rules were different when flying so it is possible that the initial advice is still valid when not flying.

He got the wrong end of the stick, because he was given the wrong end of the stick by someone at the HMRC. BUT he then chose to immediately post it in public on twitter, and it was factually incorrect information. Once it's on twitter it is in the public domain and can then get reposted elsewhere as fact, so spreading the disinformation.

Over the last few months tens of thousand of people will already have taken laptops into the eu by all modes of transport. There would be tons of stories if it was true.

 

[editor]

He got the wrong end of the stick, because he was given the wrong end of the stick by someone at the HMRC. BUT he then chose to immediately post it in public on twitter, and it was factually incorrect information. Once it's on twitter it is in the public domain and can then get reposted elsewhere as fact, so spreading the disinformation.

Over the last few months tens of thousand of people will already have taken laptops into the eu by all modes of transport. There would be tons of stories if it was true.

Hang on - you can't blame him for 'spreading the disinformation.' He was told something by the HMRC, had no reason to believe the information was false and posted up the conversation as proof.

 

[rutabowa]

Well it WAS disinformation, and he did spread it.

I dont think he did it maliciously, no idea of intent tbh, but that was the result.

I would just have suggested he (and everyone) be a bit more circumspect before publicly publishing information that common sense tells you is improbable or ludicrous, maybe double checking the facts before publishing. It only took less than 24 hours for him to find out it wasn't true, but by then it has already been reposted as fact elsewhere... which is harmful.

 

[rutabowa]

FFS this is what I mean about ingratitude. I literally just corrected a false bit of information that was on here, and rather than saying "thanks for that, that is useful to know that I dont need to worry about taking my laptop abroad after all" all I get is a pile on.

 

[editor]

FFS this is what I mean about ingratitude. I literally just corrected a false bit of information that was on here, and rather than saying "thanks for that, that is useful to know that I dont need to worry about taking my laptop abroad after all" all I get is a pile on.

Honestly, I think you're being colossally unfair: the guy did what you're supposed to - seek out official advice and even posted up a transcript of the conversation, and then did what he thought was the right thing - and that was to warn others. He didn't 'spread disinformation' - he shared an official source.

I am happy you updated the information later but you're really not getting a 'pile on' here: people (well, two actually!) just disagreed with your particular take on it.

 

[rutabowa]

re: concerns about the "portable instrument exemption" not working: posts 5, 17, 23 and 24 in this thread all refer to the same single case of one musician being incorrectly fined £150 on the eurostar. I can't find any other cases of this happening. I do know that a lot of bands are successfully doing it this way, right now.

 

[Pickman's model]

re: concerns about the "portable instrument exemption" not working: posts 5, 17, 23 and 24 in this thread all refer to the same single case of one musician being incorrectly fined £150 on the eurostar. I can't find any other cases of this happening. I do know that a lot of bands are successfully doing it this way, right now.

Don't think this thread's really interested in success

 

[rutabowa]

And just to preempt: NO that does not solve merch issues, or how bands who need to take a van full of backline do it. But it does solve ONE SPECIFIC scenario.

 

[Maltin]

Well it WAS disinformation, and he did spread it.

I dont think he did it maliciously, no idea of intent tbh, but that was the result.

I would just have suggested he (and everyone) be a bit more circumspect before publicly publishing information that common sense tells you is improbable or ludicrous, maybe double checking the facts before publishing. It only took less than 24 hours for him to find out it wasn't true, but by then it has already been reposted as fact elsewhere... which is harmful.

How do you know it is disinformation? What he posted is sourced from the government. What you are posting seems to be disinformation. Where is your evidence that what you claim is correct and this other person is wrong other than your “common sense”?

he clarified that what he was initially told wasn’t true for flights after speaking to someone else at HMRC. What about for other means of transport?

 

[Maltin]

FFS this is what I mean about ingratitude. I literally just corrected a false bit of information that was on here, and rather than saying "thanks for that, that is useful to know that I dont need to worry about taking my laptop abroad after all" all I get is a pile on.

Because you haven’t done any such thing. You posted one clarification in one scenario that the original person clarified themselves (admittedly not on this thread). You haven’t shown any evidence that what they originally posted is false.

 

[rutabowa]

You haven’t shown any evidence that what they originally posted is false.

Can you find a single link from anyone has EVER been charged duty on bringing their laptop with them into the EU?

As I said, there must have been 10s of thousands of journeys into the EU via ferries/channel tunnel over the last few months where people have brought laptops with them, so surely it will be easy to find one single link from someone who has actually been charged duty. If it was true.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you find a single link that anyone has ever been charged duty on bringing their laptop with them into the EU?

As I said, there must have been 10s of thousands of journeys into the EU via ferries/channel tunnel over the last few months where people have brought laptops with them, so surely it will be easy to find one single link from someone who has actually been charged duty. If it was true.

It's a conspiracy of silence I think

 

[rutabowa]

I know of lots of people first hand, personally, who have taken laptops (personal and work) from the UK into europe in the last few months without being charged duty, and without getting a carnet or any other kind of documentation. I'd say over 50% of people travel with laptops these days. The story would have been MASSIVE. So that is my evidence.

The idea was obviously completely ludicrous, and that was the reason I looked into it further.

 

[Pickman's model]

I know of lots of people first hand, personally, who have taken laptops (personal and work) from the UK into europe in the last few months without being charged duty, and without getting a carnet or any other kind of documentation. I'd say over 50% of people travel with laptops these days. The story would have been MASSIVE. So that is my evidence.

The idea was obviously completely ludicrous, and that was the reason I looked into it further.

Yeh you'd have had an outcry from guardian journalists

 

[rutabowa]

Absolutely, journalists are high on the list for traveling with work laptops..... wouldn't they have had SOMETHING to say about this new, unprecedented anywhere in the world throughout history, policy?

 

[Pickman's model]

Absolutely, journalists are high on the list for traveling with work laptops..... wouldn't they have had SOMETHING to say about this new, unprecedented anywhere in the world throughout history, policy?

I went to Dublin with a work laptop the other week and no one showed any interest in it whatsoever

 

[rutabowa]

I went to Dublin with a work laptop the other week and no one showed any interest in it whatsoever

I bet it was by plane though, completely different customs rules for planes apparently.

 

[Pickman's model]

I bet it was by plane though, completely different customs rules for planes apparently.

I have to hold my hands up to that.

 

[The39thStep]

I know of lots of people first hand, personally, who have taken laptops (personal and work) from the UK into europe in the last few months without being charged duty, and without getting a carnet or any other kind of documentation. I'd say over 50% of people travel with laptops these days. The story would have been MASSIVE. So that is my evidence.

The idea was obviously completely ludicrous, and that was the reason I looked into it further.

One of my mates has been over here to my place three times this year and has brought his laptop each time for some Zoom meetings and has never had any problems or made any payment.

 

[Maltin]

Can you find a single link from anyone has EVER been charged duty on bringing their laptop with them into the EU?

As I said, there must have been 10s of thousands of journeys into the EU via ferries/channel tunnel over the last few months where people have brought laptops with them, so surely it will be easy to find one single link from someone who has actually been charged duty. If it was true.

Does it matter whether anyone has been charged or not? Just because you don’t know of anyone charged doesn’t mean that there isn’t a rule that people should be following that they are not.

Many people speed without any repercussions yet the speed limit is set in law.

I agree that it seems ludicrous but just because you and others aren’t aware of anyone being charged, the only evidence on this thread seems to indicate that there might be some paperwork and cost involved and rather than just anecdotal evidence, it would be helpful if you could post official evidence to support your assertion.

 

[rutabowa]

Does it matter whether anyone has been charged or not? Just because you don’t know of anyone charged doesn’t mean that there isn’t a rule that people should be following that they are not.

Many people speed without any repercussions yet the speed limit is set in law.

I agree that it seems ludicrous but just because you and others aren’t aware of anyone being charged, the only evidence on this thread seems to indicate that there might be some paperwork and cost involved and rather than just anecdotal evidence, it would be helpful if you could post official evidence to support your assertion.

You are really scraping the barrel. So you have zero evidence for it EVER happening, but you still want me to provide evidence of it NOT happening? How about you give any evidence?

 

[Maltin]

You are really scraping the barrel. So you have zero evidence for it EVER happening, but you still want me to provide evidence of it NOT happening? How about you give any evidence?

Why should I provide evidence? You’re the one with the slurs claiming it was disinformation with no evidence to support that.

ETA and it’s not that I want evidence of it not happening, it’s just that it would be helpful if you are so in the know to provide the facts and guidance to support your claims.

 

[rutabowa]

Ok well you seem to be in a minority of 1 who need any further convincing, so I'll not spend any more effort on it.

 

[rutabowa]

I have had the conversation with our old tour guy. He has been successfully taking bands over, both with a van of amps and also just personal instruments. He personally has not heard of or experienced any issues doing it either way, though that is based on limited data of course (he knows A LOT of bands though), and is based on scummy punk bands rather than bigger bands (but some of them are fairly well known). However, the way they travel means they can plausibly say "hobby band" (i.e. "we are playing gigs for friends there's no money in it"). Personally every band I played in could be claimed as "hobby band". Some have been semi famous in our circles but economically it is "hobby band", like most touring bands.

For bands with a van of amps, they filled in this (free) form, not a carnet: Take goods temporarily out of the UK

Use a Duplicate List to temporarily export goods if:

• the country you’re exporting to does not recognise the ATA Carnet
• you do not want to pay for an ATA Carnet

Of course he emphasises unexpected shit can always go wrong on tour, but it's generally overweight vans or faulty lights etc, or getting stuff robbed. Shitty officials can always cause you problems, but a lot of that can be dealt with by speaking the right way (ie minimally) and looking like you are not worth bothering with.

Will report back if (when) problems do arise. I hope this information helps.

 

[rutabowa]

It is proving difficult to report back, as EVERY SINGLE tour they're dealing at the moment with is being cancelled cos of covid. tbh it is a pretty brave/foolhardy band who risks a lot of money planning tours on a shoestring right now for that reason.

 

[editor]

I have had the conversation with our old tour guy. He has been successfully taking bands over, both with a van of amps and also just personal instruments. He personally has not heard of or experienced any issues doing it either way, though that is based on limited data of course (he knows A LOT of bands though), and is based on scummy punk bands rather than bigger bands (but some of them are fairly well known). However, the way they travel means they can plausibly say "hobby band" (i.e. "we are playing gigs for friends there's no money in it"). Personally every band I played in could be claimed as "hobby band". Some have been semi famous in our circles but economically it is "hobby band", like most touring bands.

For bands with a van of amps, they filled in this (free) form, not a carnet: Take goods temporarily out of the UK



Of course he emphasises unexpected shit can always go wrong on tour, but it's generally overweight vans or faulty lights etc, or getting stuff robbed. Shitty officials can always cause you problems, but a lot of that can be dealt with by speaking the right way (ie minimally) and looking like you are not worth bothering with.

Will report back if (when) problems do arise. I hope this information helps.

I'm not sure my band would qualify as a 'hobby band,' which is something I've never heard of before, tbh. What are his experiences of selling merch with these bands?