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'Bleeding' vegan burger is an 'existential threat' to beef' whines NZ MP

Never had it and wouldn't have it, for the reasons you give. Interesting though that assumptions start to be made about your attitudes towards animal welfare or conservation if you express what I consider to be a healthy relationship with your meat eating habits. Lots of stuff is read in that really isn't there.

Not really. An honest position would be 'I don't give a fuck' or 'I know its not great I just really like the taste'. You seemed to have wrapped it in some sort of odd intellectual justification.

I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't eat its just that your posts* on this thread have been a bit odd, really.


*I appreciate there is some light heartedness involved.
 
Not really. An honest position would be 'I don't give a fuck' or 'I know its not great I just really like the taste'. You seemed to have wrapped it in some sort of odd intellectual justification.

I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't eat its just that your posts* on this thread have been a bit odd, really.


*I appreciate there is some light heartedness involved.
It's not a justification. That's one of the things being read into it that really isn't there. Nothing I've written here is a justification for eating meat.
 
It's not a justification. That's one of the things being read into it that really isn't there. Nothing I've written here is a justification for eating meat.

It’s kind of interesting that at this point in time there isn’t a significant branch of Western philosophy that easily justifies eating meat.
 
Maybe you've hit on an essential difference between us!

When I see a shark, I see one of the most complex life-forms in the known universe, unique as an aquatic apex predator which has never, and will never exist, anywhere else in Creation.

Putting that in soup?

:(:(

I find people munching on octopuses rather sad. Such bright, intelligent and inquisitive creatures...

How do you feel when you see sharks and octopuses dining on other sea life though? Do you think that they look at their prey and consider how nice these complex, intelligent and inquisitive life forms taste before they devour them?

They're both quite cunning predators who seem to enjoy munching on other species without much thought for considering alternative diets that may help the planet, which will actually live long after they have been made extinct.

I'm right with you on shark finn soup though Wookey . Throwing away tall that meat is quite sick IMHO. :(
 
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It’s kind of interesting that at this point in time there isn’t a significant branch of Western philosophy that easily justifies eating meat.
You've obviously never been to a Toby Carvery 'Philosophy Tuesday' meeting. 20% off for Kant readers.
 
Every meal a biology lesson. ;)

I ate ray wings last night. First time I've cooked ray, and I didn't cook it very well tbh. But preparing it reminded me that they are related to sharks, and that they don't have bones. Didn't help much when I was dealing with the mess of cartilage on the plate, but at least I knew it would be ok to bite through it. And flexing the cartilage skeleton gave me some sense of how the animal lived.
I've eaten it twice. Once in France in a fish restaurant and once to see if I could actually make it taste better than that experience myself. It's ghastly stuff. There are more fish in the sea that taste shite as there are that taste nice in my experience with rod in hand. I still don't get why people eat gurnard :mad::(:eek:
 
How do you feel when you see sharks and octopuses dining on other sea life though? Do you think that they look at their prey and consider how nice these complex, intelligent and inquisitive life forms taste before they devour them?

If there were 7 billion hungry sharks able to hunt on every square inch of land and sea on Earth, and devouring their way around the globe, it would make me very concerned indeed for the future of that species....

If those 7 billion hungry sharks were also at the same time utterly aware that their appetites were leading to a global environmental Armegeddon, I would get my harpoon ready and start the revolution.

See how the analogy breaks down?
 
I've eaten it twice. Once in France in a fish restaurant and once to see if I could actually make it taste better than that experience myself. It's ghastly stuff. There are more fish in the sea that taste shite as there are that taste nice in my experience with rod in hand. I still don't get why people eat gurnard :mad::(:eek:
Ah maybe not me then. I'm a decent cook but it really wasn't nice at all. Threw half of it away and I hate throwing away food. Was going cheap at least.
 
If there were 7 billion hungry sharks able to hunt on every square inch of land and sea on Earth, and devouring their way around the globe, it would make me very concerned indeed for the future of that species....

If those 7 billion hungry sharks were also at the same time utterly aware that their appetites were leading to a global environmental Armegeddon, I would get my harpoon ready and start the revolution.

See how the analogy breaks down?
So I'm guessing you're ready to go to war with ants then? They're right cunts by your reckoning ;)
 
So I'm guessing you're ready to go to war with ants then? They're right cunts by your reckoning ;)

40% of insects are dying out, in the 6th extinction event. Without them, we as a species will be fucked. Without ants, we as a species are fucked.

Take all humans away tomorrow, conversely, and every other wild species on earth would do better than they are doing now.

Again, the comparison doesn't float!
 
40% of insects are dying out, in the 6th extinction event. Without them, we as a species will be fucked. Without ants, we as a species are fucked.

Take all humans away tomorrow, conversely, and every other wild species on earth would do better than they are doing now.

Again, the comparison doesn't float!
Ants are greedy fuckers though aren't they? :( An bees, they don't seem to give a fuck about how much honey they make :hmm:
 
Ants are greedy fuckers though aren't they? :( An bees, they don't seem to give a fuck about how much honey they make :hmm:

Bees are dying out too, because we steal their honey and replace it with sugar water. They are the basis of pollination and the source of much of our food crops.

The only profligately and destructively greedy species is you and me Frieda.:(
 
Bees are dying out too, because we steal their honey and replace it with sugar water. They are the basis of pollination and the source of much of our food crops.

The only profligately and destructively greedy species is you and me Frieda.:(
I don't eat honey or shark fin mucker. You're on your own with this but I knew you were an evil fucker when I found out you killed carrots :(
 
I don't eat honey or shark fin mucker. You're on your own with this but I knew you were an evil fucker when I found out you killed carrots :(

And just what do you think would happen if we didn't kill carrots?!

We would be knee deep in carrots. Up to our armpits even. You wouldn't be laughing then! :mad:
 
How do you feel when you see sharks and octopuses dining on other sea life though? Do you think that they look at their prey and consider how nice these complex, intelligent and inquisitive life forms taste before they devour them?

They're both quite cunning predators who seem to enjoy munching on other species without much thought for considering alternative diets that may help the planet, which will actually live long after they have been made extinct.

I'm right with you on shark finn soup though Wookey . Throwing away tall that meat is quite sick IMHO. :(
The difference is that humans HAVE A CHOICE.
 
The difference is that humans HAVE A CHOICE.

Why single out eating meat? We also have a choice whether or not to reproduce. Regardless of whether our kids grow up to be vegans or not, they would still occupying environmental space and consuming resources on this planet that could otherwise be taken up by a plethora of other life forms. This results in animals suffering and dying for want of food and living space. Some activities conducted in support of furthering human life, such as pest control, kill animals directly rather than incidentally. Does their right to life no longer count for anything, just because their corpses don't get eaten?

Like with all cult beliefs, the underlying logic is inconsistently applied.
 
If there were 7 billion hungry sharks able to hunt on every square inch of land and sea on Earth, and devouring their way around the globe, it would make me very concerned indeed for the future of that species....

If those 7 billion hungry sharks were also at the same time utterly aware that their appetites were leading to a global environmental Armegeddon, I would get my harpoon ready and start the revolution.

Yep, if sharks in land-going factory ships were slaughtering 100 million humans every year, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with people eating shark fin soup.
 
Why single out eating meat? We also have a choice whether or not to reproduce. Regardless of whether our kids grow up to be vegans or not, they would still occupying environmental space and consuming resources on this planet that could otherwise be taken up by a plethora of other life forms. This results in animals suffering and dying for want of food and living space. Some activities conducted in support of furthering human life, such as pest control

These are not mutually exclusive.
 
Like with all cult beliefs, the underlying logic is inconsistently applied.

Veganism is a cult belief?

Are you aware what a cult actually is?

Your deliberately inflammatory language reveals a high level of reactionary ignorance I'm afraid.
 
He didn't mean choice like choice off a menu. He meant choice as in valid alternatives.
I wasn't aware that you and Ed had such a telepathic connection but thanks for elaborating his thoughts for him.

So are you saying that these highly inquisitive, intelligent, curious animals are incapable of making a choice in what they eat or do they just eat what's in front of them and not give a fuck as long as they can eat it? Do you think they chose what they eat or are they just stupid animals now that eat whatever they can catch?
 
I wasn't aware that you and Ed had such a telepathic connection but thanks for elaborating his thoughts for him.

So are you saying that these highly inquisitive, intelligent, curious animals are incapable of making a choice in what they eat or do they just eat what's in front of them and not give a fuck as long as they can eat it? Do you think they chose what they eat or are they just stupid animals now that eat whatever they can catch?

We're not telepathically linked no!

We do share a common language though. Specifically, English. :)

What on earth point are you trying to make? All animals apart from humans consume sustainably. That's why they've lasted many millions of years.

We launched human civilsation about 6000 years ago. And we're now on the edge of fucked.

So why are you insisting on comparing humans to sharks? :confused:
 
These are not mutually exclusive.

What isn't? You cut off my quote so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

You don't deny that human existence and activities leave a footprint on the Earth's environments, yes? And you accept that individual humans can choose whether or not to reproduce, correct?

While it's true that there are wild and feral organisms capable of sustaining themselves within human-built environments, I think it's undeniable that compared to wild (or even just fallow) environments the biodiversity is much lower. So, any growth or maintenance of human presence - anywhere on Earth - inevitably means that animals will suffer and die, regardless of whether that human population is vegan or not.

So therefore, by choosing to engage in reproductive behaviour that grows or maintains the human population, human beings are living "at the expense" of other life forms.

Now given the above, if other animals have just as much of a right to live and exist as human beings (that's what a right means after all, if it can be rightfully withdrawn, it's a privilege not a right), and if human beings have a choice in continuing to reproduce, how does it not follow that in choosing to continue the species, we are denying the rights of other animals to exist?

Veganism is a cult belief?

Are you aware what a cult actually is?

Your deliberately inflammatory language reveals a high level of reactionary ignorance I'm afraid.

There's veganism as a mere dietary practice; there's nothing cult about that.

But there's a nebulous kind of half-baked philosophy that some vegans - and I stress that it is some - adhere to that I consider akin to a cult belief. The a priori refusal by those types of vegans to even consider the possibility that someone else might come to different conclusions about morality that are just as valid, along with the ensuing sense of unwavering superiority (meat is murder, you bloodmouths), is what I consider cult-like. They are the ones who have "seen the light" and anyone else is part of the problem as they perceive it.

A clue that activist veganism goes beyond merely being a diet and constitutes a set of beliefs, is in its positions on topics like GMOs. There's no reason logically inherent to veganism to oppose GMOs in general (rather than opposing specific cases of GMO technology), even if one's veganism is based on the concept of animal rights; developing GMO plant crops should not necessarily involve animal testing.

Yet GMO yeast is problematic because, um... reasons?
 
We're not telepathically linked no!

We do share a common language though. Specifically, English. :)

What on earth point are you trying to make? All animals apart from humans consume sustainably. That's why they've lasted many millions of years.

We launched human civilsation about 6000 years ago. And we're now on the edge of fucked.

So why are you insisting on comparing humans to sharks? :confused:
That's not answering the question I put to you and it's you that has assumed I'm making comparisons. Go back and read what I asked.

I don't think I've seen them browsing shelves stocked full of imported goods from all across the world, no.

That's not answered the question either.

Do you think they choose what they eat? That's all I'm asking.

It's a simple question and one which didn't enquire as to whether sharks and octopuses shopped on supermarket shelves although your description could may well be a good analogy of you're average reef which is where both of these creatures have a penchants for dining. It's an interesting subject you've raised :cool:
 
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