hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
yes, although its also quite possible, even rational, for people to be cynical, wary or suspicous of the organs of the state & what they do with information
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Indeed. But is is all anonymised and isolated from other government held info. There is not one case of it being used to track individuals or groups. It's an invaluable resource.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
I have never completed a census form as I dont trust the govt.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
New York City now recognizes 31 different genders. I had to check to see if male and female were still included. They are. For now. (These are precisely the issues being discussed in the focus group you bizarrely continue to insist is entirely fabricated).
Obviously none of this could have happened without social liberalism and capitalism being fully aligned.
In other words when it comes to fashion issues like this - pretend radicalism that changes nothing of consequence - the 'class enemy' is totally on side.
More to the point, in terms of this discussion, 'the class enemy' is on your side.
And the result of this decades long collusion (unwitting and otherwise)?
One, as militant anti-fascism long foresaw - the far-right is effective in presenting itself as the radical alternative.
And two, and as importantly, it is doing so not at the expense of moderate conservatives but at the direct expense of social democracy which is now visibly collapsing across Europe as a result.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
not so much a gender issue but sexuality . I see Kevin Wilkinson , a minor player but erstwhile traveller both in distance and fascist circles has come out both Jewish and gay. Might be mitigation in his coming court case .
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
What seems to be overlooked in this kind of discussion is that while a majority of working class voters may still be voting Labour, it is, for many, only out of a lack of alternative for those who either can't bear to vote Tory, or else view the far-right (even if you include UKIP) as either still beyond the pale or incapable of effecting real change. Those who will, for now, continue to vote Labour no matter what.
Enthusiasm for the Corbyn experiment seems largely confined to activist circles, and is thus totally dependent on the above factors. And those activist circles were long ago captivated by the illusion that overcoming 'oppression' (real or imagined, societal, or simply personally experienced, and ever-expanding in its categories) will somehow lead to a recognition that capitalism is the root of all problems. That they are increasingly joined by-barely more than apolitical-allies who, due (by and large) to their relatively cushy positions in that part of the economy where you receive a salary for bringing about 'progressive' change, or their ambitions to join it, have no real beef with capitalism,even if they imagine that they do, is only grist to the mill.
As for that part of the the working class lacking in the same opportunities, personal contacts, or the education of those who claim to have their best interests at heart, as well as a fuzzy explanation as to where they've been going wrong for two centuries in their personal behaviour-if they won't continue to vote Labour they can be written off as hopeless cases, abandoned to right-wing populism-and this in complete oblivion to the fact that any notion of socialism is entirely meaningless without them.
Enthusiasm for the Corbyn experiment seems largely confined to activist circles, and is thus totally dependent on the above factors. And those activist circles were long ago captivated by the illusion that overcoming 'oppression' (real or imagined, societal, or simply personally experienced, and ever-expanding in its categories) will somehow lead to a recognition that capitalism is the root of all problems. That they are increasingly joined by-barely more than apolitical-allies who, due (by and large) to their relatively cushy positions in that part of the economy where you receive a salary for bringing about 'progressive' change, or their ambitions to join it, have no real beef with capitalism,even if they imagine that they do, is only grist to the mill.
As for that part of the the working class lacking in the same opportunities, personal contacts, or the education of those who claim to have their best interests at heart, as well as a fuzzy explanation as to where they've been going wrong for two centuries in their personal behaviour-if they won't continue to vote Labour they can be written off as hopeless cases, abandoned to right-wing populism-and this in complete oblivion to the fact that any notion of socialism is entirely meaningless without them.
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krink
I'll do it this afternoon
Not convinced at all. Court case, prevent, hope not hate... That spells "deal" to me not a change of heart.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
who is he?
19force8
For the avoidance of faith
This doesn't make sense. It's true there isn't an alternative to Labour at the moment, but that doesn't mean [many of] the working class stick with Labour because the far right is "beyond the pale" or ineffective. Completely ignoring the possibility they vote Labour out of some sense of class consciousness, however atrophied by forty years of neoliberalism.
Also, if you look at the record of the last twenty years you'll see that the main alternative to voting Labour has been not voting at all.
What above factors? The lack of a viable fascist alternative?
Of course "enthusiasm" for Corbyn is greater amongst activists, but activists don't account for the extra 3.5million votes.
When you talk about all these cushy jobs "where you receive a salary for bringing about 'progressive' change" it makes it obvious your entire post is no more than a bunch of random prejudices pulled out of the arsewipe of modern journalism and thrown together in lieu of independent thought. I resent the time lost reading it and I'm not going to waste any more responding.
I think he meant Wilshaw not Wilkinson.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Labour has been chipping away at its own working class base for decades. Corbyn will only accelerate the process. By 2020 Labour will be a metropolitan liberal party in all but name, leaving a symmetry between the voters and the activists. Which is the same process other formerly social democratic parties have gone through in Europe. So there is no 'extra' 3.5 million votes. it is merely a trade off between the former constituency and the new one. In other words the 'extras' are not in addition to, but instead of. Which is why after the 'best campaign ever etc' Labour still came up short. At an existential level once the working class vote has gone, as the French, Dutch, and now Austrian socialist parties have found out, it doesn't come back.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
If that's the case, he should have gone the full hog and self-identified as a trans-woman (he could have kept the beard for added authenticity - 'DON'T JUDGE ME!').
In the current climate there is a good chance all would be swiftly forgotten.
TopCat
Putin fanboy
This is all speculation. Lets see how it plays out. Not much else going on.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
It’s not speculation. The increase in the labour vote in 2017 overwhelmingly came from the non working class. They lost ground in working class constituencies - outside of the cities.
In addition to the European Social Democrats Corbyn increasingly reminds me of George McGovern, trying to build a ‘new left’ coalition on the basis of a policy orientations to students/hipsters/identity politics and the assumption workers were ‘in the bag’.
Unlike Corbyn he lost the unions but critically also learned eventually that you can’t ride two horses at once and drove blue collar America into a cultural accommodation with the Republicans.
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TopCat
Putin fanboy
We may well be wittnesssing a revival of Socialist policy.
Riklet
procrastinación
So aside from we-told-you-so attacks on the rise of the far right, the rise of labour social democracy across classes (come the fuck on if you dont think corbyn has appealed to a good chunk of working class young peoole) and attacks on identity politics, what political analysis and tools do the various long term posters on this thread have to offer.
Where is the action with the theory? Because after 7 years of reading the same doom-mongering here, granted often very spot on analysis, it would be nice to see something for the future as well. Critical analysis great, but does anyone think going on about too many genders in New York resonates politically with the working class? Is this going to increase political participation in 2017? I'd rather listen to grime at some rainy Corbyn rally with a load of somewhat engaged people than rehash the minutae of identity politics. Radical attacks on social democracy fair enough.... but with what relevant aim politically and socially?
Where is the action with the theory? Because after 7 years of reading the same doom-mongering here, granted often very spot on analysis, it would be nice to see something for the future as well. Critical analysis great, but does anyone think going on about too many genders in New York resonates politically with the working class? Is this going to increase political participation in 2017? I'd rather listen to grime at some rainy Corbyn rally with a load of somewhat engaged people than rehash the minutae of identity politics. Radical attacks on social democracy fair enough.... but with what relevant aim politically and socially?
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Bob Hope and no hope.
Just look at the way Labour has handled recent controversies. It has for instance gone from sacking individual whistle-blowing campaigners against sexual abuse to sacking individuals against whom sex allegations have been made, and in true Kafkaesque fashion without disclosing the substance of the allegations made against the accused, while at the same time conducting interviews with the media implying the allegations are so well-founded no other course of action was appropriate. Career and personal reputation already destroyed in other words, before the opportunity is offered to counter the narrative.
Contrast this with the Labour MP, accused of something or other along the same lines, who just because he was a Corbyn supporter was actually promoted. Or the candidate with a long public history of misogyny selected over the protests of the local party just because he was a Momentum supporter. Which would be contradictory enough if at the same time an actual rape allegation where unusually the identity of the alleged victim (self-identified) is known but the accused is somehow still in the shadows.
(An injunction? Another Momentum worthy by any chance?)
Now, if the grooming scandal was mishandled in one way because of sensitivities around accusations of Islamaphobia then on-going allegations of institutional anti-Semitism is being mishandled but in exactly the opposite way.
'Socialist revival'? Don't think so.
Ultimately, nothing screams out 'Not ready for power now - or ever' than this constant unprincipled micro-mangling of priorities while in opposition.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
There is a long established instinct on the liberal Left to act when thinking is required and to chin-stroke when action is required. Taking time out inside a bubble inside an echo chamber might be calming, and may even be understandable given the situation we are in. But unless the militant compass which has proved unerringly accurate over the last three decades - especially in contrast to others who consider themselves specialists in the same field - is now malfunctioning, things are going to be a hell of a lot worse when you come out.
The 'relevant aim politically and socially' of such a prognosis?
The combination of more or less unprecedented immigration combined with identity politics is truly toxic. Ignoring the trajectory of social democracy in places like France (in the 18-24 bracket almost one in two have an affinity to the FN) Germany and Austria to cite just a few examples, is criminally introspective. You are in short, heading in the wrong direction. And when the penny does eventually drop it will likely be far too late to do anything about it.
Fozzie Bear
Well-Known Member
This is pretty great, lots of first person accounts of physical resistance to boneheads at US punks shows:
How Black Flag, Bad Brains, and More Reclaimed Punk from White Supremacists
How Black Flag, Bad Brains, and More Reclaimed Punk from White Supremacists
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Just read The Rise of The Right by Simon Winlow (Author), Steve Hall (Author) https://www.amazon.co.uk/rise-Right-nationalism-transformation-working-class/dp/1447328485
Its a devastating and powerful polemic on how at a time of rampant neo liberalism destroying the working class and its historic position the liberal left not just abandoned the working class but made them the enemy.Its far from optimistic I'm afraid but its extremely realistic. Its post Brexit analysis at the end goes straight to the jugular. Reccomended and if anyones read it or reads it its surely worthy of a thread on here.
krink
I'll do it this afternoon
posted this in the 'former cops' thread but thought it might be of interest to followers of this thread. c-18 bomb hoax note turned out to have been written by a man who later became a cop.
Veteran Canvey cop revealed as author of 1999 terror note linked to far right group
Veteran Canvey cop revealed as author of 1999 terror note linked to far right group
ska invita
back on the other side
Quick summary of that bit please?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I'll get back to you Ska
Red About Town
Well-Known Member
An excellent article on Italy's Casa Pound. Worth reading for all anti-fascists.
The fascist movement that has brought Mussolini back to the mainstream
The fascist movement that has brought Mussolini back to the mainstream
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
...and liberal backing for freedom of movement has brought fascism back to the mainstream.
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