It is political correctness gone mad.
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
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It is political correctness gone mad.
You don’t need to be a DM reader to find the pervasive effects of identity politics irritating.
Not if taken in isolation, perhaps. But it forms part of a bigger narrative.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
When the liberal instinct is to re-order society in a fundamental way around 000.1 of the population at the whim of an even tinier on-line band of women hating zealots, then arguably you have indeed slipped sanity's leash.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
The bigger narrative is neo-liberalism. And identity politics is the left face of it.
I know about that bigger narrative, I'm just not clear what a document discussing how best to design a survey to take into account gender diversity has to do with it? Unless you think transgender etc people don't exist or their number should't be recorded, then it's fairly important that a way to record it is worked out - and as the document demonstrates, it's far from straightforward.
It isn't some kind of do-good liberal handwringing thing, it's a response to a real-world issue which will have an impact on the validity of the census if they don't get it right.
I agree with you that ID politics can be alienating to the wider population: one of the reasons for this is because of a divisive campaign by people on the right to misconstrue things like this and use them as examples of mad out of touch lefties. It's for us to look into stories like this and work out how real they are rather than taking them at face value and repeating them, or you're just doing their work for them.
It isn't some kind of do-good liberal handwringing thing, it's a response to a real-world issue which will have an impact on the validity of the census if they don't get it right.
I agree with you that ID politics can be alienating to the wider population: one of the reasons for this is because of a divisive campaign by people on the right to misconstrue things like this and use them as examples of mad out of touch lefties. It's for us to look into stories like this and work out how real they are rather than taking them at face value and repeating them, or you're just doing their work for them.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
This is not about a simple survey. The whole issue around so called 'non-binary gender diversity' is ideologically driven. So it it very much part of the wider neo-liberal narrative. Although the campaign is demonstrably non-organic, elements on the left pretend that it is, and misconstrue what is actually going on to allow them to define the slightest hesitation or opposition to their agenda as 'hate crime'.
The astonishing pace set by the trans lobby in Canada and the US shows that it is now an accepted part of the new liberal orthodoxy. So when you accuse the 'scab press' of fake news without any evidence, that is in itself by definition 'fake news'.
It is not necessary to be a scholar or even literate to understand there is only one beneficiary from this kind of dissembling in the long run. The day after Austria has just elected its most far-right government since 1938 ought to give any genuine anti-fascist pause for thought before lining up behind these charlatans.
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belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
yuck.
It isn't a simple survey - that is about the only true thing in your post. It is the most thorough survey of the British population, it is thorough and detailed. Within that context it is obvious to all but Daily Mail style bigots, why it is a perfectly reasonable question to explore. You may 'know' that it affects 000.1% of the population (or 0.001% as I imagine you meant), but that's a figure you plucked straight from your arse. We dont know what it is, and it is worth finding out. Worldwide, 1.7% of people have intersex characteristics - which equates to around a million people in the UK. Plenty will be happy to describe themselves as the sex they were ascribed at birth, but some wont. And its worth finding out just how many of them there are.
How does something being "ideologically driven" mean that it's part of the "wider neo liberal narrative" ? Bit of a non sequitur there.
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Why is it worth finding out?
Are you getting at the whole idea of having a census?
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Yes. Might as well think up as many categories as you can to add. It probably means jobs for people in the know.
It does seem to be a colossal waste of time.
RD2003
Got a really fucking shitty attitude
Bit like contemporary society as a whole.
The accuracy of a census requires goodwill on the part of the respondents. If you've decided to ignore a vocal and organised part of the population you're surveying, then you can probably expect there to be a campaign to give invalid responses that would likely spread far beyond those you've excluded. This actually happened (in Australia I think - it goes into detail in the study).
I've read the report, linked to it and discussed over several posts what it says. What it definitely doesn't say - the reason I bothered getting into this in the first place, is:
That just isn't true. It's not real. You're repeating a non-story from a Murdoch newspaper.
I'm not lining up behind anyone. I was just asking you to check your sources.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Post colonialism, identity, cultural threory, third wave feminism - post modernism in short- these ideas are much more than a survey or a question.
These ideas have become dominant in academia, they have become dominant across the left and they are regularly recuperated and co-opted by liberals and neo-liberals. What are the dominant and common characteristics of these ideas?
1. Class is often emptied out/relegated as a primary focus/source of agency. Other characteristics - sometimes of choice, sometimes of birth - are seen as more important and unifying.
2. Capital becomes just one source of oppression, becuase oppression is something that everyone does to each other. For some opppression isn't even linked to the organsiation of society but to 'others'.
3.. Those holding these ideas can become focussed on achieving gains within the system by competing with other vested identity groups (rather than changing the system).
3. Over time these same proponents can become invested in the maintenance and operation of the system as they develop a small stake within its structures.
4. Neo liberalism and liberals generally welcome this form of politics and are happy to make concessions with it and bargain with it within existing frameworks that they operate and control.
5. This approach can channel ideas, energy, hope, youth and confidence into dead ends where the best that can be achieved is recognition from those with power and a better allocation of resource under the system than other groups.
6. Others in society learn that to achieve ANYTHING - acknowledgement of your plight, resources, investment - you must organise yourselves along similar identarian lines and join in the elbowing for recognition and resources.
But by all means sneeringly suggest that this is merely about a census question rather than the use of an example to highlight a wider set of ideas.
These ideas have become dominant in academia, they have become dominant across the left and they are regularly recuperated and co-opted by liberals and neo-liberals. What are the dominant and common characteristics of these ideas?
1. Class is often emptied out/relegated as a primary focus/source of agency. Other characteristics - sometimes of choice, sometimes of birth - are seen as more important and unifying.
2. Capital becomes just one source of oppression, becuase oppression is something that everyone does to each other. For some opppression isn't even linked to the organsiation of society but to 'others'.
3.. Those holding these ideas can become focussed on achieving gains within the system by competing with other vested identity groups (rather than changing the system).
3. Over time these same proponents can become invested in the maintenance and operation of the system as they develop a small stake within its structures.
4. Neo liberalism and liberals generally welcome this form of politics and are happy to make concessions with it and bargain with it within existing frameworks that they operate and control.
5. This approach can channel ideas, energy, hope, youth and confidence into dead ends where the best that can be achieved is recognition from those with power and a better allocation of resource under the system than other groups.
6. Others in society learn that to achieve ANYTHING - acknowledgement of your plight, resources, investment - you must organise yourselves along similar identarian lines and join in the elbowing for recognition and resources.
But by all means sneeringly suggest that this is merely about a census question rather than the use of an example to highlight a wider set of ideas.
Good post. Two number threes though?
FWIW I agree with all this. I just don't think the way to go about challenging it is by repeating easily countered stories from the right-wing press.
But surely that just reinforces the point that identity politics suits the political right as it can be put to good use by sowing division amongst the competing identities?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
'Can' does not equal 'always' Promoting bigotry and pretending genuine oppressions dont exist is also a good method of sowing division.
hot air baboon
Well-Known Member
piggy backs fairly neatly with the NHS story about patients being asked to disclose their sexual orientation - the big brother state sticking its nose into every intimate crevice of peoples' lives or something along those lines
Nurses to be expected to ask patients about sexual orientation
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Yes, that's the standard response from someone every decade - usually from the right who oppose any kind of state planning.
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