love detective
there's no love too small
libel lawyers do other things besides libel cases though (albeit this one wasn't particularly good at it - although that may be more to do with the 'information' supplied to them by their client)
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
- Thread starter cogg
- Start date
libel lawyers do other things besides libel cases though (albeit this one wasn't particularly good at it - although that may be more to do with the 'information' supplied to them by their client)
While we are at it 66... as you seem to know the law...
If a letter from a legal firm has the words 'not for publication' on it does that mean that legally you can't publish it? Or is that more bolloxology from the bolloxologists at Carter-Ruck?
Does that mean I can send people letters with 'not for publication' written across it and they can't 'publish' it?
I meant 'you' as in the authors and publishers collectively.
Unfortunately I can't claim authorship either
er, yeah it means you can't publish it, so if you've got it don't make it public here.
love detective
there's no love too small
===NOT FOR PUBLICATION===
thing is under what law can they enforce this ?
Isn't the recipient of a letter, the owner of it, and therefore they have the right to decide what to do with it? If someone doesn't want something published they shouldn't send it to someone in the first place no?
If the sender of the lender asserted copyright on the contents of the letter then could it be enforced under that? but if so does that mean people can copyright absolutely anything and assert it? regardless of it's artistic merit/originality etc.. could i copyright this post for example?
Is there any cases in the UK of any successful enforcements of this
(i have copies of the letter as well by the way but I don't think they should be published - but for other reasons)
thing is under what law can they enforce this ?
Isn't the recipient of a letter, the owner of it, and therefore they have the right to decide what to do with it? If someone doesn't want something published they shouldn't send it to someone in the first place no?
If the sender of the lender asserted copyright on the contents of the letter then could it be enforced under that? but if so does that mean people can copyright absolutely anything and assert it? regardless of it's artistic merit/originality etc.. could i copyright this post for example?
Is there any cases in the UK of any successful enforcements of this
(i have copies of the letter as well by the way but I don't think they should be published - but for other reasons)
not sure the context of the letter, but it would be considered a private document between those who wrote it and those who received it - especially if the information enclosed is of a legal nature. Therefore a level of confidentiality is expected, especially if made explicit by one party (and that party being a particularly litigious law firm).
Question is how public is public?
Sounds like bullshit on their part.
Depends what it is. For instance, when the manuscript for your book was sent off I assume steps had been taken to protect intellectual property rights such as a witness to copyright?
So if I got the manuscript and decided to sell an abridged version to Anti-Fascist Weekly Magazine (TM) without your say so you could provide evidence of authorship and put a stop to it / sue me for copyright infringement.
I don't know about letters and the such but they do own the copyright to their own words and if they've taken steps to prove they wrote it then I wouldn't be in a rush to republish it elsewhere tbh.
E2a:
You own the intellectual property rights to all of your posts on the internet. But the point is being able to prove you wrote it before anyone else. I'm not sure if Urban's time stamps would stand up in court as it would be argued that they could be tampered with etc.
Everything you need to know is here.
Louise,
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?
Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas.
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
It would clear things up if you could explain why if someone had just been hit on the way home from the pub Dave ended up on street robbery charges. Also how he ended up with the victims student Library card on him when arrested?
Dave spoke often about the night in the Sporren, the incident with the heavy metal fans at the comedy night benefit for disabled bikers, but never before have I heard anyone link the two incidents not even Steve T who has put forward many different explanations for what took place. I understood the benefit night was months before, sometime around christmas.
Sorry Louise but Dave didn't tell you the truth, the mugging was out of character, stupid and he was obviously ashamed.
i looked for the book on the internet and somewhat bizarrely was directed to a nazi site where oddly enough they had posts on saying "Sounds interesting" !!!! True there were a few moans and slag offs of lefties but the authors must be doing something right, you wouldn't get boring intellectual books read by the enemy...
Beating tha Fascists...more untold stories
If this had been written about the Dave Hann part of the book No Retreat, I would be inclined to agree with her, However it is not, Incredibly It refers to Beating the Facsists.
No Retreat, in which Louise Purbrick, published writer and academic, is credited by Dave Hann as being the unpaid editor and researcher, stands as a seriously flawed part of the collective historical record.
These flaws stand quite apart from Hann’s involvement in the mugging of gays, and I note that Louise does not respond to any of the points raised in my previous post, however it is clear from her response to another post that she was deliberately misled by Dave Hann at the time of his arrest, and unsurprisingly Hann immediately puts the blame on poor old Mark (again).
In No Retreat, Hann claims that he joined Red Action in 1984, did 2 years service in London prior to moving to Manchester at the beginning of 1987, where he met Gerry to forge a 10 year political alliance. Many times he re-iterates the 12 years of his life he has given to fighting fascism, only to be betrayed by Red Action.
Manchester 1987 according to Hann is described thus; ‘In contrast to the lively cultural scene, the city seemed to be dead politically. There was almost nothing going on. As a consequence of all this inactivity there was also no permanent anti-fascist organisation. The AFA group that had smashed up the NF in 1985 had faded into oblivion as the anti fascsists became victims of their own success and succumbed to the twin lures of family life and careers. Only a couple of individuals remained active and even these were semi retired’ (No Retreat pages 125, 126)
This is a complete fabrication.
Dave Hann did not appear in Manchester until late 1989. His first known involvement politically was as the Red Action delegate on the Manchester Martyrs Commemoration Committee. There is absolutely no record of any political work carried out by Hann in Manchester between 1987 and 1989, apart from when travelling up with RA for one day events like MMCC and VMDC .
Gerry, who was based in Glasgow, had a working relationship with activists in Manchester through the MMCC and VMDC and the Bands Alliance, only moved to Manchester in mid 1989 followed by Hann in the autumn of 1989. He had not even heard of Dave Hann in 1987, and only met him for the first time at the MMCC in November 1988.
Remarkably the AFA group in Manchester which Hann claims fell apart after Stockport 85, could arguably claim to have been one of, if not the most active AFA branch in the network.
Manchester AFA from 1985 to 1990 was, alongside Liverpool one of the strongest AFA groups outside of London. It was formed by the squaddists and others who were originally part of the Socialist Federation.
The period in question from 1987 to 1989, saw Viraj Mendis take refuge in the Church of Ascension in Dec 86 until his arrest by the police in Jan 89. AFA supported the campaign throughout, which involved members sleeping overnight in the church as part of the security rota, and managing the stewarding of the church one day a week. Marches and vigils were held every week, and the campaign ran by the RCG maintained a high profile throughout Viraj’s time in sanctuary. During this time there were many attacks by opposition that AFA was actively involved in dealing with. Alan Payne, the BNP organiser was captured in a sting by AFA members who posed as binmen to offer him the plans to the church so they could attempt a citizens arrest. Another attack by 6 masked men was reported in the Manchester Evening News. AFA’s intervention after this attack had quite remarkable consequences for 2 of the attackers. There was also the strange incident of the ‘friendly fire’ attack, and the planned St Georges day attack thwarted by AFA.
In 1987 and 1988 the Manchester Martyrs Commemorations were to reach their peak, with the march moving out of Longsight and into the town centre complete with eight republican flute bands in the ranks. All the key positions on the Manchester Martyrs Committee were held by AFA members. The march was underwritten by the effectiveness of the stewarding, which after the slipshod debut march in 1981, was put into place by second generation anti fascists, and as a consequence the Commemoration showed year on year growth, peaking in 1988. The spokesperson for the MMCC and AFA activist was named and shamed by Nicholas Winterton in the House of Commons in Jan of 1989, as the calls for bans, and restrictions on the now hugely successful MM march, began to grow.
AFA were also involved on the ground as Steve T will fondly remember our trip to Mandela Gardens in Leeds. AFA students launched a telephone hotline for reporting fascist activity and race attacks which was the first of its kind and was the fore runner of the national AFA hotline.
That Hann did not know this history is not surprising as he was not there. Hardly politically dead!
Beating the Fascists tells of a badly organised gig in late 1989 (my recollection is actually 1990) by the newly arrived Hann at the Swinging Sporran with inadequate stewarding. After the arrival of 80 boneheads from the hill towns AFA organised an impromptu mobilisation of 15 stewards. Such was the calibre and determination of these stewards that the 80 bones left quietly when told to go or face the music.
That such physical force anti fascism was readily available virtually on tap in late 89 belies the picture painted by Hann on his alleged arrival in 1987. Hann omitted this event from No Retreat.
It should be noted that the AFA relaunch referred to in No Retreat occurred in 1991.
So where was Hann between 1987 and1989 if was not in Manchester. He was in London doing his 2 years with RA, which is not in dispute. What is in dispute is when he joined Red Action.
Hann claims that he became active in Red Action in 1984, however he also states that; ‘ I started buying their paper, Red Action, and read a few articles about them in various fanzines, recounting how they had turned over the NF in Islington, Greenwich, Bury St Edmunds, and numerous other places.’ ‘After a couple of months I took the plunge and joined, and although I didn’t know it at the time, the next twelve years of my life would be dominated by the war against the fash.’
According to Beating the Fascists, Bury St Edmunds did not occur until 1986, so for Hann to join some months after this means that the earliest he could have joined RA is late 1986. Red Action put the date of his joining as early 1988 following his attendance on the AFA Cenotaph march of 1987.
There is no evidence to support Hann’s political activity with RA between 1984 and 1987, and likewise there is no evidence to support Hann’s political activity in Manchester between early 1987 and late 1989.
Hann’s political career as detailed in No Retreat is a complete fabrication. A forgery. An invented CV to enhance his political profile far greater than his actual achievements would merit and to place him in the context of the political struggle against fascism four years before he became active.
Twelve years as a credible anti fascist now reduces to six years from joining Red Action in 1988 to May or June of 1994 when he is arrested for his part in the mugging of a gay person.
So what is the purpose of the big lie.
It is to place Hann in the context of the anti fascist struggle as a veteran who would have been a founding member of AFA in1985, as opposed to someone who joined a fully formed AFA stewards group in early 1988. To take the work of others (Red Action 1984-1987) and present as his own, the very people he dismisses as no longer having the stomach for the fight years later when he has to justify his political retirement.
Likewise in Manchester he has to dismiss the work of others (Manchester AFA 1985-1990) in order to enhance and embellish what he believes is his finest achievement in single handedly resurrecting AFA in Manchester, by declaring the area politically dead in 1987.
No Retreat by Dave Hann fails to meet the threshold of integrity required to be considered a credible addition to the collective history of anti fascism because it is a forgery. It is a carefully constructed bogus CV, and perhaps as the researcher and editor you can explain how this benefits the fight against fascism. As a published author and academic you understand the historical relevance of giving a true and proper account of events. I look forward to your explanation of why Dave Hann fabricated his political CV, and that you can with no hint of shame, challenge the credibility and historical value of Beating the Fascists The Untold Story.
If this had been written about the Dave Hann part of the book No Retreat, I would be inclined to agree with her, However it is not, Incredibly It refers to Beating the Facsists.
No Retreat, in which Louise Purbrick, published writer and academic, is credited by Dave Hann as being the unpaid editor and researcher, stands as a seriously flawed part of the collective historical record.
These flaws stand quite apart from Hann’s involvement in the mugging of gays, and I note that Louise does not respond to any of the points raised in my previous post, however it is clear from her response to another post that she was deliberately misled by Dave Hann at the time of his arrest, and unsurprisingly Hann immediately puts the blame on poor old Mark (again).
In No Retreat, Hann claims that he joined Red Action in 1984, did 2 years service in London prior to moving to Manchester at the beginning of 1987, where he met Gerry to forge a 10 year political alliance. Many times he re-iterates the 12 years of his life he has given to fighting fascism, only to be betrayed by Red Action.
Manchester 1987 according to Hann is described thus; ‘In contrast to the lively cultural scene, the city seemed to be dead politically. There was almost nothing going on. As a consequence of all this inactivity there was also no permanent anti-fascist organisation. The AFA group that had smashed up the NF in 1985 had faded into oblivion as the anti fascsists became victims of their own success and succumbed to the twin lures of family life and careers. Only a couple of individuals remained active and even these were semi retired’ (No Retreat pages 125, 126)
This is a complete fabrication.
Dave Hann did not appear in Manchester until late 1989. His first known involvement politically was as the Red Action delegate on the Manchester Martyrs Commemoration Committee. There is absolutely no record of any political work carried out by Hann in Manchester between 1987 and 1989, apart from when travelling up with RA for one day events like MMCC and VMDC .
Gerry, who was based in Glasgow, had a working relationship with activists in Manchester through the MMCC and VMDC and the Bands Alliance, only moved to Manchester in mid 1989 followed by Hann in the autumn of 1989. He had not even heard of Dave Hann in 1987, and only met him for the first time at the MMCC in November 1988.
Remarkably the AFA group in Manchester which Hann claims fell apart after Stockport 85, could arguably claim to have been one of, if not the most active AFA branch in the network.
Manchester AFA from 1985 to 1990 was, alongside Liverpool one of the strongest AFA groups outside of London. It was formed by the squaddists and others who were originally part of the Socialist Federation.
The period in question from 1987 to 1989, saw Viraj Mendis take refuge in the Church of Ascension in Dec 86 until his arrest by the police in Jan 89. AFA supported the campaign throughout, which involved members sleeping overnight in the church as part of the security rota, and managing the stewarding of the church one day a week. Marches and vigils were held every week, and the campaign ran by the RCG maintained a high profile throughout Viraj’s time in sanctuary. During this time there were many attacks by opposition that AFA was actively involved in dealing with. Alan Payne, the BNP organiser was captured in a sting by AFA members who posed as binmen to offer him the plans to the church so they could attempt a citizens arrest. Another attack by 6 masked men was reported in the Manchester Evening News. AFA’s intervention after this attack had quite remarkable consequences for 2 of the attackers. There was also the strange incident of the ‘friendly fire’ attack, and the planned St Georges day attack thwarted by AFA.
In 1987 and 1988 the Manchester Martyrs Commemorations were to reach their peak, with the march moving out of Longsight and into the town centre complete with eight republican flute bands in the ranks. All the key positions on the Manchester Martyrs Committee were held by AFA members. The march was underwritten by the effectiveness of the stewarding, which after the slipshod debut march in 1981, was put into place by second generation anti fascists, and as a consequence the Commemoration showed year on year growth, peaking in 1988. The spokesperson for the MMCC and AFA activist was named and shamed by Nicholas Winterton in the House of Commons in Jan of 1989, as the calls for bans, and restrictions on the now hugely successful MM march, began to grow.
AFA were also involved on the ground as Steve T will fondly remember our trip to Mandela Gardens in Leeds. AFA students launched a telephone hotline for reporting fascist activity and race attacks which was the first of its kind and was the fore runner of the national AFA hotline.
That Hann did not know this history is not surprising as he was not there. Hardly politically dead!
Beating the Fascists tells of a badly organised gig in late 1989 (my recollection is actually 1990) by the newly arrived Hann at the Swinging Sporran with inadequate stewarding. After the arrival of 80 boneheads from the hill towns AFA organised an impromptu mobilisation of 15 stewards. Such was the calibre and determination of these stewards that the 80 bones left quietly when told to go or face the music.
That such physical force anti fascism was readily available virtually on tap in late 89 belies the picture painted by Hann on his alleged arrival in 1987. Hann omitted this event from No Retreat.
It should be noted that the AFA relaunch referred to in No Retreat occurred in 1991.
So where was Hann between 1987 and1989 if was not in Manchester. He was in London doing his 2 years with RA, which is not in dispute. What is in dispute is when he joined Red Action.
Hann claims that he became active in Red Action in 1984, however he also states that; ‘ I started buying their paper, Red Action, and read a few articles about them in various fanzines, recounting how they had turned over the NF in Islington, Greenwich, Bury St Edmunds, and numerous other places.’ ‘After a couple of months I took the plunge and joined, and although I didn’t know it at the time, the next twelve years of my life would be dominated by the war against the fash.’
According to Beating the Fascists, Bury St Edmunds did not occur until 1986, so for Hann to join some months after this means that the earliest he could have joined RA is late 1986. Red Action put the date of his joining as early 1988 following his attendance on the AFA Cenotaph march of 1987.
There is no evidence to support Hann’s political activity with RA between 1984 and 1987, and likewise there is no evidence to support Hann’s political activity in Manchester between early 1987 and late 1989.
Hann’s political career as detailed in No Retreat is a complete fabrication. A forgery. An invented CV to enhance his political profile far greater than his actual achievements would merit and to place him in the context of the political struggle against fascism four years before he became active.
Twelve years as a credible anti fascist now reduces to six years from joining Red Action in 1988 to May or June of 1994 when he is arrested for his part in the mugging of a gay person.
So what is the purpose of the big lie.
It is to place Hann in the context of the anti fascist struggle as a veteran who would have been a founding member of AFA in1985, as opposed to someone who joined a fully formed AFA stewards group in early 1988. To take the work of others (Red Action 1984-1987) and present as his own, the very people he dismisses as no longer having the stomach for the fight years later when he has to justify his political retirement.
Likewise in Manchester he has to dismiss the work of others (Manchester AFA 1985-1990) in order to enhance and embellish what he believes is his finest achievement in single handedly resurrecting AFA in Manchester, by declaring the area politically dead in 1987.
No Retreat by Dave Hann fails to meet the threshold of integrity required to be considered a credible addition to the collective history of anti fascism because it is a forgery. It is a carefully constructed bogus CV, and perhaps as the researcher and editor you can explain how this benefits the fight against fascism. As a published author and academic you understand the historical relevance of giving a true and proper account of events. I look forward to your explanation of why Dave Hann fabricated his political CV, and that you can with no hint of shame, challenge the credibility and historical value of Beating the Fascists The Untold Story.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Does it serve any purpose dragging this up time and time again? The poor sods dead afterall.
Black Widow
New Member
A message for Louise/Stop sobbing
Wipe the tears from your eyes and start studying the writing style of Urban 75 message boards. Try this.
"I’m not sure what’s worse. Is it Red Action’s book or this thread? It’s all about crowning the kings of anti-fascism. What a sorry state of affairs for last year’s wannabe revolutionaries but collective responsibility was never RA’s strong point.
And the whole Hann thing. Even by the account in BTF, he was found not guilty of robbing someone who did not declare he was gay to the police or prosecution. This has been spun out for far too long.
Then there’s Carter-Ruck. Stop whining like toddlers made to share a toy. Wasn’t it this law firm that IWCA used to sue the Labour Party? Check this
http://www.carter-ruck.com/Miscellaneous/?page=40
If you give it out you should be able to take it. Careful that crown doesn’t slip down your face.
You get the hang of it. Say something nasty, click the submit button and do a sad little victory dance in front of the screen."
Wipe the tears from your eyes and start studying the writing style of Urban 75 message boards. Try this.
"I’m not sure what’s worse. Is it Red Action’s book or this thread? It’s all about crowning the kings of anti-fascism. What a sorry state of affairs for last year’s wannabe revolutionaries but collective responsibility was never RA’s strong point.
And the whole Hann thing. Even by the account in BTF, he was found not guilty of robbing someone who did not declare he was gay to the police or prosecution. This has been spun out for far too long.
Then there’s Carter-Ruck. Stop whining like toddlers made to share a toy. Wasn’t it this law firm that IWCA used to sue the Labour Party? Check this
http://www.carter-ruck.com/Miscellaneous/?page=40
If you give it out you should be able to take it. Careful that crown doesn’t slip down your face.
You get the hang of it. Say something nasty, click the submit button and do a sad little victory dance in front of the screen."
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Another book! Likely to run and run then.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
Louise has made 2 posts so I don't think that it is her who keeps on bringing his name up
love detective
there's no love too small
well we've heard from her lawyers again today on this very topic (ironically alleging that various inaccuracies are present in BTF in relation to Mr Hann)
Sounds like she's just throwing good money after bad given that you can't libel the dead?
Are you 12, Trev? Or are you just hoping she'll dress up as Santa to deliver it?
heh heh, i can have THAT before Chrimbo
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I was reminded the other day that Nick Lowles was once an AFA member , in Leeds, before being exposed as a Searchie.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
Not sure Nick Lowles was ever an actual member per se. though Leeds AFA, at an organiser level was not only 'Searchie' it was, as AFA, discovered a Searchie dynasty, with the baton being passed on when the incumbent went on to other things.
Anyways.... looking forward to this book-launch party
I fished out a favourite old ballgown the other day ( I didn't like to buy a new Designer one as some of the horrible Oiks in attendance might be jealous). Sadly I may have to have it 'let out' a little, but the stillettos still fit like a glass slipper.
I fished out a favourite old ballgown the other day ( I didn't like to buy a new Designer one as some of the horrible Oiks in attendance might be jealous). Sadly I may have to have it 'let out' a little, but the stillettos still fit like a glass slipper.
miktheword
Well-Known Member
looking forward to it as well. Still don't know what to wear. I always took stick for the sharpness of my threads, amongst many other things, all quite legitimate. Giving the 'Just for Men' an outing, cos 'the best is yet to come.'. Can still get into the stuff that I adorned fifteen years ago. The scouse git should be down, obviously re-stating that they started the whole casual dresser thing and asking me if Joe R is still wearing that green flight jacket.
Come, come, dear boy... the flight jacket was, like, sooooooooo 1980's. JR always had his own version of sartorial eloquence and carried it off flawlessly... as CJ was oft wont to relate... and Carl definitely had style...
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Cheers Joe.
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