I think we may have reached a historic moment ,albeit in the eye of the needle world of Urban, where I can agree on something with you.
You might be surprised at the amount of agreement between us, but that (and the jibes) is as may be.
That is there is absolutely no entitlement for the left to take for granted that that the working class should support them. As I said before Labour lost its working class base decades ago.
you're hardly the first to observe that, it's an article of faith. But tbh the labour party w/c base is holding up rather better than any other part of the left- that's not a defence, I'm neither a member nor supporter of labour, but I'd be interested in evidence that there's any significant left of labour w/c base.
I know that in previous posts you have been dismissed the gains made by an organised working class
a caricature, but I'll accept that I place the emphasis differently to you. F'rinstance, I'd suggest that for a century or more the building/provident/friendly societies were the strongest and most important organised w/c achievements, and see it as a tragedy that they were willingly- enthusiastically- sold by the w/c for individual rather than collective benefit.
( I seem to recall one post in which you tried to suggest that the car manufacturing industry was effectively shut down by the unions until someone who had researched that industry put you right) and have a mistrust of communities whether they be based in work, community or otherwise to be inclusive instead wanting yet more top down legislation . However the very absence of an organised working class warts and all means that it is the right wing who become the opposition to the establishment .
actually no, but since you mention the car industry I'll say that i grew up in a a stereotypical w/c environment- everyone on the estate worked at the factory, everyone had (has) the same landlord. What's pertinent, because it plays into your theory of domains, is that they've voted (and thought) tory throughout. They didn't oppose the establishment, weren't remotely militant during the 60s & 70s when Cowley & Longbridge were leading the way, not even in the 80s when the factory closed and their pensions were stolen by venture capitalists. So when you tell me that communities like that are the natural domain of the left (or indeed, prey to the far right) I'm somewhat skeptical. Some other communities have obviously taken a different attitude, that's clear, but the w/c is far wider than the ones who agree with you.
One way is to actually ask those communities what the issues are that face them or that they want to improve even if in terms if the top down left they are off the agenda.
aye, but what happens when you ask the questions and they say they're personally aspirational, they want low taxes, small state with fewer regulations, want to restrict benefits, and, perhaps crucially, they support the establishment... not far right, probably not even ukip right, but not on the same page as the left (whatever that is, however you see it now in 2015 post the election of Corbyn).
I think the 'everybody is just out for themselves' '/just look out for yourself ' / ' I'm alright jack ' ( God that must age me) mentality has been with us for years but that doesn't seem to stop everyday incidents of people sticking together in the face of adversity whether it be flooding in Cumbria, volunteering, to the recent housing campaigns, NHS campaigns etc.
no of course it doesn't, people are communal, neighbourly creatures. The claim that 'there's no such thing as society' is clearly nonsense. But to concentrate only on examples of communalism is to deny that over the years the w/c has taken to personal wealth creation and asset accumulation at the same time as it has voted, often enthusiastically, for neo-libs to dismantle collective ownership and r
elease aspirational entrepreneurship (or whatever it is they say).
No doubt I'm the only one here to know compromised w/c people, who've used their savings, equity release, relatively low social housing rent, inheritance, whatever to buy holiday homes, btl's, stocks & shares, to start businesses... I'm sure the rest of you only know those who've never accumulated any wealth and never will, and are shocked when I observe that significant numbers of stakeholders exist in 'w/c areas'. It's reasonable to ask whether the left wants those people to become part of its domain, since it simply dismisses their views, what it is they want, how they see self-interest. Perhaps because it starts from the assumption that w/c people are naturally and necessarily in "opposition to the establishment". I am, most urbanites are, but we're oddballs.
Yet left activists tend to be rather purist and judgemental about such things, uncompromising about personal language and behaviour, hectoring those who fall short and, ultimately, distancing themselves from the ambiguities of modern lives. Discounting the views of those who don't fit the theory doesn't help, nor does writing off the wrong sort of w/c people as
middle class.
So going back to your points about asking what people want, how does the left deal with people who are settled in the tory or nulab, establishment domain? That's probably the majority of the w/c.
Long post but hope you get the general thrust.
oh yes, and long reply, and I'd be grateful if it could be read as observations rather than advocacy. eg I'm not saying people should buy shares or become btl landlords, I'm saying they do and asking how to deal with that.
