malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
i know i deleted it.
Beating the Fascists: The authorised history of Anti-Fascist Action
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malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Goodwin makes in his first of 3 points the classic liberal-left mistake of thinking that anti-immigration issues are almost soley the drivers for far-right electoral popularity. In the 2nd he forgets that the BNP engaged in the process of detoxification that he says they failed to undertake - he wrote book largely concerned with it and its results as well which makes it even odder. The third point - UKIP competence - is correct and the BNP recognised this and tried very hard to establish second and third layers of experienced serious organisers during their 2006-2011 battles with UKIP. But it's not a strong enough reason for what's happened over the last few years.
I think we need a new thread for analysis of the far-right btw. It's a bit pointless us just bunging stuff on the end of this one every now and then.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
yeah new thread required. any suggestions BA?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, first one, i start it. And it won't be tonight.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
why, are you actually going out of the house? outrageous!
Kate Sharpley
Well-Known Member
"Beating the Fascists – a view from the North" by an ex-Liverpool AFA member is now on our website:
"In summary, Beating the Fascists is an important book. It’s definitely part of the Untold Story of both militant anti-fascism and the history of Anti-Fascist Action. But it’s not the full story by any means – trying to get a complete story of AFA from one book is probably unrealistic anyway, given the geographical spread, the number of years, and the political groups involved. Read it, think about what its saying, but be aware of the gaps."
http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/jsxn47
"In summary, Beating the Fascists is an important book. It’s definitely part of the Untold Story of both militant anti-fascism and the history of Anti-Fascist Action. But it’s not the full story by any means – trying to get a complete story of AFA from one book is probably unrealistic anyway, given the geographical spread, the number of years, and the political groups involved. Read it, think about what its saying, but be aware of the gaps."
http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/jsxn47
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
What are the gaps?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
Nice one
Well-Known Member
a small vindication
Kate Sharpley
Well-Known Member
On the Northern Network (sources and interpretation): "In Beating the Fascists the accounts of the Northern Network are probably the weakest parts of the book. There are two reasons for this. First, unlike the accounts from London, there is a clear lack of first-hand accounts over the years. Secondly, the history of the Northern Network is skewed to fit the Red Action party line rather than describe how things really were."
On the DAM (sources): "The main anarchist organisation Beating the Fascists mentions is the anarcho-syndicalist Direct Action Movement (DAM). The DAM was an important part of AFA, both in London and nationally, and Beating the Fascists does quite a good job in recognising this. A serious attempt is made to give credit to the DAM – or at least particular DAM members. But it looks like the authors of Beating the Fascists didn’t ask any ex-DAM members for their opinions. Instead, a couple of Albert Meltzer’s remarks in his autobiography, I Couldn’t Paint Golden Angels, seem to be used as a stand-in for the DAM."
[But then written accounts from DAM members (in any field of activity) are not exactly thick on the ground. Call for anarchist accounts: http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/p8d05b]
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Are these gaps or minor quibbles? And why has it taken so long for these minor quibbles to surface?
Kate Sharpley
Well-Known Member
Gaps v quibbles depends on your point of view.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps the subtitle should have been 'an untold history of anti-fascist action' as 'the history' suggests it's the final word. it would be good if other people put pen to paper to round out the account in 'beating the fascists' - until that happens btf seems to me the best source.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
What was the 'party line' and why was AFA history skewed to fit it?
TopCat
Putin fanboy
This is what you meant?
miktheword
Well-Known Member
Why now though are squibbles coming out?... Seems strange.
Years ago I read an account from k Sharpley site...about RA and Enkell
arms. I've refrained from putting the record straight due to the respect held.for the DAM. it was me who.
was last in boozer havin gone on a scouting mission just about made it into boozer followed a few hy instinct to back room chatting to tearful barmaid en route..saw a few dam breaking cues and putting balls in socks...i returned to main bar and was ensconced next to Stevie whilst. eroically shouting from beneath bar for old Irish fella to shut the other fuckin door ..
Not my finest hour but better than my cameo in BTF suggests but was happy to iust get a mention...no quibbles...to return to the start and to k sharpley..why now?
And especially as BTF says..we decided not to say anything aboutthe day as the DAM had been such good allies and street fighters...i read your archive account of the incident a few years back and admittedly you say it was a second hand account...but probably shouldve checked if putting that online
Years ago I read an account from k Sharpley site...about RA and Enkell
arms. I've refrained from putting the record straight due to the respect held.for the DAM. it was me who.
was last in boozer havin gone on a scouting mission just about made it into boozer followed a few hy instinct to back room chatting to tearful barmaid en route..saw a few dam breaking cues and putting balls in socks...i returned to main bar and was ensconced next to Stevie whilst. eroically shouting from beneath bar for old Irish fella to shut the other fuckin door ..
Not my finest hour but better than my cameo in BTF suggests but was happy to iust get a mention...no quibbles...to return to the start and to k sharpley..why now?
And especially as BTF says..we decided not to say anything aboutthe day as the DAM had been such good allies and street fighters...i read your archive account of the incident a few years back and admittedly you say it was a second hand account...but probably shouldve checked if putting that online
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malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
the main problem is that there arent enough 1st person account (for obvious reasons) and its hard to cross reference. there are a few accounts of the Enkell thing and you can kind of work out what happened overall. we have tried to get as many 1st hand accounts in our book some of which will inevitably be disputed. such are the hazards of oral history: subjectivity.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
"The untold story of anti-fascist action" is the subtitle - in my copy anyway.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
pedantry alive and well i see. what is the substantive difference between 'the untold story' and 'the untold history' you're getting at?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Mirror mirror on the wall
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
miktheword
Well-Known Member
the problem I had with the K Sharpley version of the Enkell is that it wasn't true. I could go through most of it in minor details, but this is the account that appeared in K Sharpley
https://libcom.org/library/bash-the-fash-anti-fascist-recollections-1984-1993/19-anti-fascist-events-where-i-wasn-t-present
Red Action, DAM and a few others were holed up in a pub called the Enkell Arms. Some DAM members went scouting and found the fascists in another pub nearby. They nipped back to the Enkell Arms to ‘gather the troops’. Unfortunately there was a lot of dithering by certain people, and before you could say “Freedom For Tooting” the fascists had found the Enkell Arms.
In no time bricks were flying through the windows. Uncharacteristically most of Red Action ran into the back room leaving the anarchists to defend the place using pool cues, furniture and those heavy pub ashtrays. In fact our heroes probably smashed more of the pub windows with those ashtrays than the fascists did! There was one hilarious moment as a certain DAM comrade fulfilled a lifetime ambition and used the bar as a springboard just like in those Wild West movies. The cops were there pretty quick, just as the anarchists were getting into their stride, but nobody was arrested fortunately.
It seems odd to me that they would diss another organisation in their anti fascist recollections ..most telling is that it is done in a section entitled anti fascist events where I wasn't present (the bit I've bolded in their link...')
I was the only member of RA in the backroom, and for a very short time. There were a couple of DAM at the pool /snooker table as I described in a post above.
anyway, I shouldn't quibble.
Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
If your method of reaching the truth is to take as many accounts as you can, give them all equal weight and then put them into a blender enabling "you to kind of work out what happened overall", then I suspect that more than one ex- AFA member who contributed in good faith your project will be more than a little pissed off.
For example there are a number of alternative versions carried in BTF which are discussed in depth; one from C18, one from Steve Sargent, and the inversion of reality presented as the 'anarchist' account published by Kate Sharpley which is both the least detailed and the most egregious.
Whereas the C18 accounts contradict each other the 'anarchist version' of events is nothing less than a bang out lie. Of course the source for the story didn't have the balls to publish it under his own name but laid it off on another member of DAM - who wasn't there - but who was naive enough to publish it in good faith.
The reason for writing BTF was to bring clarity to an important and successful campaign that lasted the best part of 15 years and put to bed the rumours, myths and black propaganda that swirled around it from all quarters ever since.
You on the other hand, if the "Enkell thing" is in anyway representative, seem to have set out to re-smudge the lens and pass it all off as 'subjectivity'.
Given the current state of play across Europe this type of lazy cynicism is very last thing anti-fascism needs.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
i dont think anyone should be criticised for writing under a nom de guerre, sean!!! and i would refer you to your remarks prior to BTF being published (which as you will see i rate VERY highly, and more so than the initial review did) that you shouldnt criticise any book before reading it. i certainly do not underestimate RA and what they did which has my utmost respect as the book more than makes clear! in fact, i cite 2 anarchist sources in the RA chapter who both make it plain that RA did the business more than anyone.
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Joe Reilly
Well-Known Member
But the Dam member in question didn't write under a nom de guerre did he - he didn't put any name to it at all - merely passing it on to a colleague who was naive to take it in good faith, when writing under his own nom de guerre. Moreover my criticism is not with the book per se but with the erroneous method ( a pinch of truth here, a salting of lies and a sliver of sectaranism there and hey presto - history!) by which you happily advertise you arrive at conclusions.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
i dont think you shd deduce a larger works methodology from a comment on urban75 (like critics of RA did prior to the release of BTF). and sorry, are we talking about the K Bullstreet one or the exLAFA one?
wait till it comes out then criticse it.
wait till it comes out then criticse it.
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